lag

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Mudsquisher
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lag

Post by Mudsquisher » Thu May 28, 2009 9:20 pm

This one is mainly for admins or creators out there. Lag is such a big problem!!!! I think that there should be more of a restriction to having high lag!! I do know that if you have high lag the sever will give you three warnings and then kick you, but this is not the solution! I do relize that some serevers are just lag "made" well thats ok, but for others...no way!! :idea-alt: :idea: A suggestion is if kicked once,and return again with high lag,that day, maybe you will be banned or kicked untill lag is fixed. PLEASE HELP! Lag is annoying and an EASY WAY TO CHEAT!!because players have hard times killing you with high lag, and the person with the lag ends up being the best player! UGH! REMEBER, if you do have lag check any background downloads or anything else that is running may cause high lag. Also rebooting your computer may help! :idea: If you have any suggestions of fixing lag please tell. thank you!
Last edited by Mudsquisher on Fri May 29, 2009 7:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: LAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by joevano » Thu May 28, 2009 9:26 pm

I suggest that you do not play on servers that regularly have players with high lag and no lag controls. There are plenty of well run servers out there...

PS Lagging is generally not considered a cheat.
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Re: LAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Bambino » Thu May 28, 2009 10:44 pm

Mudsquisher wrote:[A suggestion is if kicked once,and return again with high lag,that day, maybe you will be banned or kicked untill lag is fixed.
The AntiLagKickRejoin plugin bans you for 30 min if you get kicked for lag twice in 5 minutes IIRC.
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Re: LAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Grace F » Thu May 28, 2009 11:58 pm

Keep in mind that some people just aren't close enough to the server to enjoy "low lag".
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Re: LAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by blast » Fri May 29, 2009 1:48 am

Mudsquisher, first, you should also avoid YELLING in your topic subject lines. And second: Each server owner can make their own rules for how they run their server. If that means allowing people to play with high lag, then so be it. It's not your decision. It is your decision if you continue to play on that server or not. On Missile Wars 2, I have it set up so that 300ms is the lag limit, and after 3 warnings, it will kick you. I also run the plugin that Bambino mentioned, so if you get kicked for lag twice in 5 minutes, it bans you for 30 minutes. (I modified the plugin a bit to provide a more useful ban message)
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Re: lag

Post by llrr » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:21 am

Mudsquisher, be careful with what you're saying. some people, such as me, cannot lower our lag, and we do not use it either, we don't cheat, we're all perfectly clean players. So if you find it annoying, then deal with it, it's part of the game. People have the right to join servers even if they get kicked nonstop, that's their choice. If you think a lagger should be banned, then you're a noob, if you think a lagger is a cheater, or it's easy for them to cheat, then you're also a noob. Simply speaking, the lag compensation in bz is just not good enough and it cannot be controlled. An australian player will always have 300ms of lag at a american server, and 300+ at euro servers. So, do NOT accuse laggers like that, it makes people like me just real pissed off at you.

PS, kicking people with high lag IS the solution, unlike you said. Also, don't give me the crap about how you find it annoying, get over it. We find it annoying too, you don't see half the bzflag community complaining about it.

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Re: lag

Post by meeba » Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:15 am

llrr wrote:People have the right to join servers even if they get kicked nonstop, that's their choice.
I believe that people who constantly rejoin after being kicked deserve to be shot.

It's not your right to be on a server. If someone doesn't want you wasting their resources, you probably shouldn't do it.

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Re: lag

Post by llrr » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:06 am

it's got nothing to do with whoever the server owner is wasting the resources, and it is your right to be able to join any server, it is not a right ONLY if you're banned from that server, and having high lag is NOT a justifiable reason to ban anyone, especially if their lag is within server laglimits. whoever complains like that is a noob themselves coz they can't kill the "lagger". well learn to do it. On the other hand, if a lagger is over the laglimit of the server, then thats why the lagkick system is there, to kick them. just imagine if you keep getting kicked nonstop and rejoining, you won't have a very good game would you? thus thinking realistically laggers don't always rejoin nonstop, because that way they do not ever get a good game.

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Re: lag

Post by khazhyk » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:40 pm

llrr wrote:it's got nothing to do with whoever the server owner is wasting the resources, and it is your right to be able to join any server, it is not a right ONLY if you're banned from that server, and having high lag is NOT a justifiable reason to ban anyone, especially if their lag is within server laglimits. whoever complains like that is a noob themselves coz they can't kill the "lagger". well learn to do it. On the other hand, if a lagger is over the laglimit of the server, then thats why the lagkick system is there, to kick them. just imagine if you keep getting kicked nonstop and rejoining, you won't have a very good game would you? thus thinking realistically laggers don't always rejoin nonstop, because that way they do not ever get a good game.
It is not anyone's right to join any server. Servers are hosted voluntarily by the server owners, and yes, they do cost money. Joining and playing on a server is a privilege, and the server owner should be allowed to, and can ban anyone, for any reason. Lag falls under "any reason." Believe it or not, in most internet games, if your lag is over 300ms, you will get kicked or banned. Hell, some places don't tolerate 200 or 150. If someone is kicked for high lag, makes no attempt to fix it, and constantly rejoin, I personally would ban that person. Also the lag-kick is usually a three-warn-and-then-kick system, so it can be five minutes before a lagger is kicked. Rejoining every five minutes isn't going to break the game for that player.


I understand that you personally cannot fix your lag, and I'm not saying laggers are "evil" or "cheaters," I'm just saying, if one gets kicked constantly, there's a pretty good chance that that someone isn't wanted at that server, and that servers are a privilege, not a right.

Now, on the issue of "If you think a lagger should be banned, then you're a noob."
Tell that to anyone playing any internet game, and they will laugh in your face. Believe it or not, lag is an issue. Saying it's not and that it's "part of the game" is just silly.
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Re: lag

Post by Grace F » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:03 pm

me1 wrote:Now, on the issue of "If you think a lagger should be banned, then you're a noob."
Tell that to anyone playing any internet game, and they will laugh in your face. Believe it or not, lag is an issue. Saying it's not and that it's "part of the game" is just silly.
It is an issue, however, as their is no way to fix gerographical lag, I see it as a part of the game.
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Re: lag

Post by homeboy » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:49 pm

I think the game just handles lag really badly, compared to how other fps multiplayer games handle it.

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Re: lag

Post by joevano » Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:17 pm

This game was originally written for playing on a LAN, where lag is not an issue. This game was also written even before the internet was even being thought of for gaming. SO that being said, there is no lag compensation anywhere in the 2.0.x and lower version of the game. We do understand the lag issue and will being addressing that in 3.0.
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Re: lag

Post by blast » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:45 am

homeboy wrote:I think the game just handles lag really badly, compared to how other fps multiplayer games handle it.
Really? What games do you play? Most of the FPS games I play are completely unplayable once you get much over 150 or 200ms of lag. (Such as Left 4 Dead, Synergy, Half Life 2: Deathmatch, etc)
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Re: lag

Post by llrr » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:51 am

me1, what the hell are you on about. ok whatever if it's a privilege for one to join a server, but lag is in EVERY internet game, agreed? THEREFORE it is part of a game. It is only an issue when it's something that's only a problem for some and not a problem for others. Do you know that even two people who have very low lag still complain about "thru", "...", "that hit" etc. just read the that topic in the form. It cannot be omitted then it's part of the game. Therefore you are a noob if you can't deal with lag. How hard is it to just shoot a bit earlier, so you hit the other guy, use some logic and common sense. Whether you're able to adjust to different people with different lag then it's your own problem. You think how we all got into bz in the first place, did we go, oh too laggy we can't play, ok we won't play? NO, because we're not idiots like some people out there who only knows how to complain and not to just play the game and get over it, it's not a hard skill to learn. AND, i just want to stress this. Servers are set up for the world wide community. when i said it is a right i meant it is a right to join. PROVIDED that server is already there. obviously you can't join a server if it isn't there, but if it is then no one can stop you from clicking the join button. Whether you can play on it or not it's up to the server owners, and that comes into the lagwarn/kick system. If you really think constantly rejoining every 5mins won't screw up your game then i'd like to see you do that, EVERYDAY. Don't sit there pretending you know all this crap coz you don't, come into the same boat as us then you can tell me just what you think about it.

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Re: lag

Post by khazhyk » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:39 pm

llrr wrote:me1, what the hell are you on about. ok whatever if it's a privilege for one to join a server, but lag is in EVERY internet game, agreed? THEREFORE it is part of a game. It is only an issue when it's something that's only a problem for some and not a problem for others. Do you know that even two people who have very low lag still complain about "thru", "...", "that hit" etc. just read the that topic in the form. It cannot be omitted then it's part of the game. Therefore you are a noob if you can't deal with lag. How hard is it to just shoot a bit earlier, so you hit the other guy, use some logic and common sense. Whether you're able to adjust to different people with different lag then it's your own problem. You think how we all got into bz in the first place, did we go, oh too laggy we can't play, ok we won't play? NO, because we're not idiots like some people out there who only knows how to complain and not to just play the game and get over it, it's not a hard skill to learn. AND, i just want to stress this. Servers are set up for the world wide community. when i said it is a right i meant it is a right to join. PROVIDED that server is already there. obviously you can't join a server if it isn't there, but if it is then no one can stop you from clicking the join button. Whether you can play on it or not it's up to the server owners, and that comes into the lagwarn/kick system. If you really think constantly rejoining every 5mins won't screw up your game then i'd like to see you do that, EVERYDAY. Don't sit there pretending you know all this crap coz you don't, come into the same boat as us then you can tell me just what you think about it.
Believe it or not, in most internet games, as blast and I have both said, lag is an issue. If you have more than 200-250ms lag, you are always, and I mean always, kicked or banned. Most servers in other games kick you if you are over 100-150ms lag, so don't say that they do not.

Also, if everyone has an issue, in this case lag, is it no longer an issue? If everyone gets sick, are they no longer sick? If everyone breaks a bone, is it no longer broken? No, it is still an issue, regardless of who is impacted.

Joining a server is not a "right" just because you can join it. To use a harsh example, I can go out on the street and stab someone, does that make it my right? No. I am able to walk down the street and walk into someone else's home, does that make it my right? No. You and me are both able to join a server, does that make it our right? No.

Honestly, if I had to deal with high lag, I probably wouldn't enjoy it, but I wouldn't decide that it's not a problem, and I definitely wouldn't turn around and say that it is an intended part of the game. Also, so what if people complain that shots go "through" at low lag? All that says is that either those players whine too much, or that, even at low lag, lag is still an issue.

You are right, it is not that hard to shoot ahead of a person and compensate for lag. However, lag being mostly unpredictable as it is, having to compensate for lag should not be, and is not an intended part of the game. In addition, while it is not that hard to simply "shoot ahead," remember that bzflag has jumping tanks. It is much harder to compensate for jumping tanks, tanks on different levels, and believe me, while it is not that hard to "shoot ahead," knowing when and by how much you should shoot ahead isn't easy.
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Re: lag

Post by jeff » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:26 pm

Beleive it or not,there is a way to kill laggers.shoot in front of were they apear to be,or under them if they are falling.i also agree with almost EVERY thing llrr is talking about. just because u lag dosnt mean u cheat.
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Re: lag

Post by Jacko H » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:35 am

My name is jacko H and yes im a lagger but it takes more skill if there is laggy people around. so i think lag should have limits of 400!!!!!!!!! :!:
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Re: lag

Post by joevano » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:31 am

Jacko H wrote:My name is jacko H and yes im a lagger but it takes more skill if there is laggy people around. so i think lag should have limits of 400!!!!!!!!! :!:
The limit is generally 300. Years of experience have shown that much more than that makes a tank much more difficult to hit. And that is no fun except for the guy who won't die when you shoot him/her.
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Re: lag

Post by blast » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:21 pm

And BZFlag actually handles lag better than most games. In Left 4 Dead, for example, the optimal lag is under 100ms, and it starts to become completely unplayable at around 250ms.
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Re: lag

Post by char[] » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:11 pm

At the time you want to comment 250ms of lag is huge, please consider that distance travelled by light (and signal) in vacuum is only 7.5 times of Earth's equator, and it is even 1.5 times shorter in optical fibre. There are also usually dozens of routers between a client and a server. Even if it is a straight route, be prepared there can be 100ms of lag.

In stone-age places where bandwidth is scarce, downloading files really increases the lag because the network packages cannot be propagated at the earliest opportunity. In that case, switching off programs does help.

Unfortunately, bandwidth cannot improve the latency. People getting high bandwidth gets lag due to the distance problem. In Hong Kong, for example, people can get 100Mbps network connection very inexpensively but they are still getting 200 or even 300ms lag to servers in USA. Shouting "fix the lag" to these people just shows the admin is still in the stone-age, not actually knowing the true cause of lag. :lol-old:

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Re: lag

Post by Sniper752 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:42 pm

my opinion...
i dont like lag cause ppl can cheat
but i hate (had to keep from "YELLING" :) )
whenever i have the high lag and cant play where i want
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Re: lag

Post by Swigg » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:38 pm

char[] wrote:At the time you want to comment 250ms of lag is huge, please consider that distance travelled by light (and signal) in vacuum is only 7.5 times of Earth's equator, and it is even 1.5 times shorter in optical fibre.
What??? Lesser increments must be displayed as fractions: 1.5 times shorter makes no sense; 1.5 times a given time would be longer, not shorter. Distance = Rate x Time. What did you mean to convey?

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Re: lag

Post by Bambino » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:13 pm

Sniper752 wrote:my opinion...
i dont like lag cause ppl can cheat
but i hate (had to keep from "YELLING" :) )
whenever i have the high lag and cant play where i want
People with lag are not cheating unless they do certain things to make their lag greater such as downloading a movie or streaming video. Lag is like a double edged sword; It makes you harder to kill and makes it harder for you to kill others. So you really can't win.
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Re: lag

Post by char[] » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:35 pm

Swigg wrote:
char[] wrote:At the time you want to comment 250ms of lag is huge, please consider that distance travelled by light (and signal) in vacuum is only 7.5 times of Earth's equator, and it is even 1.5 times shorter in optical fibre.
What??? Lesser increments must be displayed as fractions: 1.5 times shorter makes no sense; 1.5 times a given time would be longer, not shorter. Distance = Rate x Time. What did you mean to convey?
Shorter distance per unit of time means longer time to travel the same distance. I just don't want to comment about your education background but I have to admit Math education is very advanced in my city. Maybe I jumped too much for you.

In 1 second, light in vacuum can travel distance of 7.5 times of equator
In optical fibre, the reflective index is 1.5. It takes 1.5x of time to travel the same distance in fibre compared in vacuum.
In 1 second, light can only travel distance of (7.5 / 1.5) = 5 times of equator in optical fibre.
The minimum round-trip time of Internet packet can get to 1000ms / 5 = 200ms, if the two parties are at furthest distance. This has not yet taken the buffer time in the dozens of intermediate Internet routers.

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Re: lag

Post by llrr » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:56 pm

haha char, our maths is crazy :D

but well, yeah, funny thing is after all this people are still more concerned about a particular player's lag, rather than the combined lag. 2 players with 200ms is the same as 1 player with 100ms and 1 player with 300ms. but people don't understand that do they :]

also another thing, lots of people accuse us of using lag, funny thing is we CANNOT not use lag...it's part of our game, and we have no choice in it..but to say that we use and abuse lag is an overstatement since we're not actually doing anything with it, just playing like normal except with a small time difference factored into the experience.

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