Posting of "cheater" IPs in this fourm (important)

Place for people to discuss public servers, and also for admins to lay out the details of their servers
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Posting of "cheater" IPs in this fourm (important)

Post by JeffM » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:52 pm

There have been some changes with the "servers" fourms.

We will no longer be allowing public posts that contain IP addresses of "cheaters" or other trouble makers. If you think somone is cheating on the server you are on then please just contact the server's admin staff.

If you are on a server's admin staff and feel that the cheater IP should be spread to other servers, then please contact your server owner.

[EDIT] we won't be doing the rest of this as too many people see it as a governing body, when that is not what it is. Public forums will not be used to discuss bans or any sort of server plolicy. Use your private server forums for that if you wish.[/EDIT]

If you are a server owner of a permenant (24/7) server, and use global registration for ether the spawn or talk permision, then you are eligable to be included in the new global login private discussion fourm. Here you can post and discuss about problem cheaters with other server owners who use the global login system.

If the server that has the offending player is not admined, then there isn't anything you can do. If the server dosn't use global login, then it is somewhat on it's own.

This system should allow for better comunication of the global login servers, as well as prevent the cheaters from getting the attention they so desire.

If you are a server owner and feel you are elegeble for the private forum, please contact a fourm admin privately. They will verify the registration status of your server and then add you to the group.

To repeat, you must use global login, and require it to at lease speak. We understand that it is not easy to get everyone to register, that is why we are only requiring the talk perm to be tied to registration, so you can still have unreged people play. At a later date when the game is more helpfull in registration we may change the membership requirement to be reg for spawn.

*Note*
This private forum is for server OWNERS only. You have to be the person who runs the actual server machine. This is not a forum for admin staff. If you would like a private forum for you and your admin staff, please just ask us. We have many. The idea here is to set up a "multi-tier" system, where it goes from players -> admins -> owners -> network admins.
Last edited by JeffM on Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by eagle » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:12 pm

good, im glad your doing that. although i am going to have to get a server soon then :(
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Post by Workaphobia » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:46 pm

Why is it restricted to servers that encourage global registration? Is it for accountability in the case of false accusations, or to make it difficult for just any server to gain entry and access the player IPs being discussed?
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Post by Tropican8 » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:33 pm

Wait lemme get this straight, so I have to require people to register to talk in order to be part of ths group?

I say just make a private admin and owner forum. All people in .cop groups are in this forum. Easy. Done.

By the way Jeff, other than Silvercat and Secretplace, I don't think any server is up 'all the time'. Also it seems funny to exclude servers based on any criteria, as we are all part of the BZ community.

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Post by Winny » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:37 pm

Tropican8 wrote:By the way Jeff, other than Silvercat and Secretplace, I don't think any server is up 'all the time'. Also it seems funny to exclude servers based on any criteria, as we are all part of the BZ community.

you said it tropican8!

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Post by eagle » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:30 pm

oh, i totally support what tropican said!you said it.
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Post by RPG » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:37 pm

Guys, don't you see you are just trying to be included in the new forum? It's a forum for server owners... don't be jealous, you can get access to it if you communicate through a owner. You can't be included in everything ;)

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Post by Winny » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:50 pm

I am a server owner,
but yet I am not allowed.

am I just supposed to guess the cheaters ip or what?

Just because our servers aren't up all the time, doesn't mean we should be denied acces to a forum for server owners which we are, in case you didn't notice.

it's not someone else's bandwidth Im using, it's my bandwidth.

What harm will it do to add a few people to the forum that servers are not on all the time? last I checked there was no limit on the amount or people allowed in a group.

For example, my server (when on :wink: ) is usually on the first page of the server list ( 15 people or over) so , what your telling me, is that just because my server isn't on all the time I am not intitled to the ip's of cheaters and access to the forum for server owners? Which, as I have said before we are.

is it just me or does this not seem right?

And as Tropican8 said, we are members of the Bzflag community.[/b]

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Post by TD-Linux » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:59 pm

I think this is a really good idea. It will keep long threads from occuring in this forum about cheaters, and wandering into 'I think cheaters should be banned', 'I don't like cheaters', 'I think he sounds like a cheater too', and 'I saw a cheater once too' discussions. It won't do much in the way for confirming someone is a cheater, but is good for discussing known cheaters. /report is for cheaters.
Eagle wrote:good, im glad your doing that. although i am going to have to get a server soon then :Sad:
Why will you need to get a server? The forum is useless unless you have a popular server and see people cheating on it.
Workaphobia wrote:Why is it restricted to servers that encourage global registration?
Most likely to prevent false accusations, as you stated, but I also think JeffM2501 is promoting global registration in general. I think it is a 'treat' for servers that encourage global registration.
Tropican8 wrote:I say just make a private admin and owner forum. All people in .cop groups are in this forum. Easy. Done.
This is a good idea, but might get out of control fairly easily. Basically you want a /report for all servers?

<hr />

As for servers that are up 24/7, that is probably a little loose, you might be able to get by with 12/7. What he's saying is he only wants big trustworthy servers, not one that you run on your dial-up connection when you are bored :wink:
You'd be suprised at the number of servers that are up 24/7, but are rarely on the front page.

Edit: Win XP: as I said, this is like a 'treat', you really don't need it if you have good admins that /report a cheater to you. If you never see a cheater it is of no concern to you.

Oh yes, and for the record, I don't run any public servers at all, and my private ones are so primitive I don't even have local groups set up on them :roll:

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Post by Ice Wewe » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:11 pm

TD-Linux wrote:I think this is a really good idea. It will keep long threads from occuring in this forum about cheaters, and wandering into 'I think cheaters should be banned', 'I don't like cheaters', 'I think he sounds like a cheater too', and 'I saw a cheater once too' discussions. It won't do much in the way for confirming someone is a cheater, but is good for discussing known cheaters. /report is for cheaters.
Eagle wrote:good, im glad your doing that. although i am going to have to get a server soon then :Sad:
Why will you need to get a server? The forum is useless unless you have a popular server and see people cheating on it.
Workaphobia wrote:Why is it restricted to servers that encourage global registration?
Most likely to prevent false accusations, as you stated, but I also think JeffM2501 is promoting global registration in general. I think it is a 'treat' for servers that encourage global registration.
Tropican8 wrote:I say just make a private admin and owner forum. All people in .cop groups are in this forum. Easy. Done.
This is a good idea, but might get out of control fairly easily. Basically you want a /report for all servers?

<hr />

As for servers that are up 24/7, that is probably a little loose, you might be able to get by with 12/7. What he's saying is he only wants big trustworthy servers, not one that you run on your dial-up connection when you are bored :wink:
You'd be suprised at the number of servers that are up 24/7, but are rarely on the front page.

Edit: Win XP: as I said, this is like a 'treat', you really don't need it if you have good admins that /report a cheater to you. If you never see a cheater it is of no concern to you.

Oh yes, and for the record, I don't run any public servers at all, and my private ones are so primitive I don't even have local groups set up on them :roll:

What I don't like is that normal player's can't take down a cheater's IP address. You have to have special privilages to do /playerlist. If server's let people do that, then you'd see more cheater's IP addresses showing up.

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Post by TD-Linux » Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:38 pm

Hmm.... good point, Ice Wewe.

The ideal situation here would be that there would be at least one active priveleged person on. A player spying someone cheating could report there callsign via the admin channel, and the person priveleged with /playerlist could do the report. Alternatively, the callsign could be /reported and the server owner would have to scavenge the logs for the IP.

Another idea would be to give lots of people you trust /playerlist priveleges - but make sure you trust them, and they know the difference between lag and cheating. But then again, if they meet all those qualities well, they would make a good cop.

I should get back to work on Masterbot - maybe I'll think of some way it could be useful.

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Post by Hannibal » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:21 am

Ice, if you allow that, many an person would report an IP for cheating when it is either mearly lag or skill. Server's can do what they want when it comes to policing. On Planet Mofo, for instance, Vader has like 10 different enforcers. Tropican8's server has around 20. one is nearly always on.
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Post by Winny » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:40 am

well I guess I will just have to mooch Ip's off of someone,

because I guess a non-perminent server isn't good enough.

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Post by Teppic » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:21 am

TD-Linux wrote:Another idea would be to give lots of people you trust /playerlist priveleges - but make sure you trust them
Why do you have to trust them, if two or three unknown people report a player as cheating, grepping the logs for that players callsign is going to be the first thing you do, at the end of the day unless you have a sepena IP's hardly connect you to any personal information anyway. I can see no reason , currently, why verified callsigns shouldn't have the /playerlist command, can you?

/me runs of to modify groups.txt

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Post by Workaphobia » Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:54 am

TD-Linux wrote:/report is for cheaters.
My biggest problem with report is that it forces you to be very terse - I sometimes can't even finish a full sentence. I get the feeling that I'd have to use IM shorthand to be able to communicate anything important in any detail.

Question: Is the text transmition limit only enforced client side? If so, I might just knock that number up a bit so I can communicate better in-game.
TD-Linux wrote:
Workaphobia wrote:Why is it restricted to servers that encourage global registration?
Most likely to prevent false accusations, as you stated, but I also think JeffM2501 is promoting global registration in general. I think it is a 'treat' for servers that encourage global registration.
I find the trend kind of interesting, how the community moves towards centralization to combat cheating and identity theft - er, impersonation. I'm just wondering how many new players will want to register on these forums to be able to spawn on popular servers. I hope the system is further refined in the long-term.
TD-Linux wrote:
Tropican8 wrote:I say just make a private admin and owner forum. All people in .cop groups are in this forum. Easy. Done.
This is a good idea, but might get out of control fairly easily. Basically you want a /report for all servers?
Which really wouldn't be that different from the current system.
Teppic wrote:I can see no reason , currently, why verified callsigns shouldn't have the /playerlist command, can you?
Sometimes you don't want to broadcast your ip to the world when there's no need to. A little privacy isn't a horrible thing. All that's needed is a reliable way to track down exactly what ip a player, verified or otherwise, had at a given time. This can already be done via logs. What purpose does it serve, to give your players this kind of access?
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Post by loophole » Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:59 am

Teppic wrote: I can see no reason , currently, why verified callsigns shouldn't have the /playerlist command, can you?
Ping flood DoS attacks and other malicious network activity.

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Post by Teppic » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:08 am

Workaphobia wrote:
Teppic wrote:I can see no reason , currently, why verified callsigns shouldn't have the /playerlist command, can you?
Sometimes you don't want to broadcast your ip to the world when there's no need to. ...snip... What purpose does it serve, to give your players this kind of access?
Your ip is allready broadcast in more ways that I bet most internet users are even aware of, plus as I said, it really doesn't equate to that much information.
As for serving a purpose, it makes post incident server managment much easier, i.e in verifying events, also the knowledge that your ip is in the 'public domain' on entering the server must have some kind of diminishing effect on that false sense of anonimity that so many, for want of a better word, 'jerks' hide behind., kind of like CCTV being more for prevention than 'evidence in support after the fact'.

EDIT In response to cosmol: Maybe because I have my own servers pointed to by domain names I take a rather relaxed approach to handing out my own IP, security by anonimity in the case of IP's has never been that good, for example my mail server has never been advertised, but I still get at least 10 unauthorized relay attempts every week. I suppose my approach comes from knowing of and being in control of what security I have in place to protect my systems. This is more important to me than being 'unseen on the map', and weather people come across your IP by 'accident' or by other means, the precautions you take to secure your system should be the same in either case.

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Post by JeffM » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:41 am

Bans are a thing between servers and players. They are not a network wide "comunity" thing. There is no voting on bans, there is no input, or peer review. If a server wants to ban they can. We do not hold them to any restrictions on that. If a server wants to let it's players poll for a ban, that's up to them as well. But they have nothing to do with the network and comunity as a whole.

If we make a place for public people to just "jot down" the ip of a "cheater" then we make a place that has some form of expected responce, when there can not be any, since we don't run any servers.

BZFlag is not a democracy. Server owners are nice enough to let you all play on there systems. We are nice enough to let you all use these forums. Nidhoggr is nice enough to host it all.

Do not make the "comunity" out to be something it is not.

This forum is for people who make the intended use of the global registration system. It is very much like a private forum for a server, just at a higher level. Server owners and admin staff can allways discuss Bans and policy in there own private forums. Just like owners can in this fourm. It is for info that may be of interest to all serious servers that use the global system.

This group is not a reward, it is not a treat. it is a service for people that make use of the global login. Members will not have any more rights or privleges then anyone else. They will not "chose" who goes on masterban. They will not set network polciy. It's just a place to make there lives easyer. Again we are not a democracy. Being part of the "comunity" realy dosn't mean you have a right to anything. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the real deal of it.

Yes the 24/7 thing is to limit the group to servers that are in it for the long hual. Not servers that are conditional on a parent. Sorry but if you realy want to be serious about running a server, get some real hosting it's not that hard. Every server that asks to join will be handled seperately. SP is a special case since it's owner is basicly not involved anymore, so a member of it's admin staff will be added instead. So the "rules" are flexable.

If you arn't in the group, then you arn't in the group. If you set up a server just to be in the group, 1) your wasting your time, there are like 200 servers allready, and 2) you may not be let in anyway because of your reasons for making the server in the first place. If your current server is not using global registration then you must have your own way of dealing with your admin issues and that's perfectly fine, have at it, keep doin' what your doin'. Then you don't realy need to be part of the group since you arn't realy using the system. If a server isn't realy admined activly, well they kind of get what they pay for in admins and bans then. It's not our job to apply bans or policy to servers that are not admined, that's the owners job. If we wanted all servers run the same way, we'd run the servers and just not list the ones we did not controll. But that's not how bzflag works.

Basicly serious servers only please.

I know WinXP is miffed that he's not in the group, as well I'm sure a number of the other younger server owners are as well. It's not a club, you don't have to be part of all things, you'll get over it.

Also this thread is not a discussion of this new forum, it is simply an announcement. I simply states the changes to the fourms.

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Post by Winny » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:10 am

I will just have to guess these ip addresses or what?

guess so.

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Post by JeffM » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:34 am

you can admin your server how ever you wish.

If you were smart, you could you know, TALK to a server owner who is in the group, if you wish to base your personal ban lists on theres. But I'd hope you'd trust them in there decissions. I'd say that if you trust them that much, you'd ether be part of there admin staff, or have them on your admin staff, then you'd have nice private server fourms to talk in.

Who's to say that the baned users from one server is right to ban on another server. The only person who can make that choice for a server is it's owner. Every server has there own rules.

your treating this like it's some magic club that is going to have this perfect ban list that posted. It is not what it's for. I don't see it being used for IPs, but for user accounts. since they will all be doing global auth.

And guess what, if your server is doing global auth, you'll pick up any username bans or removals automaticly.... not mater how short a time your server is on.

Now please get over it.

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Post by eagle » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:11 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:Bans are a thing between servers and players. They are not a network wide "comunity" thing. There is no voting on bans, there is no input, or peer review. If a server wants to ban they can. We do not hold them to any restrictions on that. If a server wants to let it's players poll for a ban, that's up to them as well. But they have nothing to do with the network and comunity as a whole.

If we make a place for public people to just "jot down" the ip of a "cheater" then we make a place that has some form of expected responce, when there can not be any, since we don't run any servers.

BZFlag is not a democracy. Server owners are nice enough to let you all play on there systems. We are nice enough to let you all use these forums. Nidhoggr is nice enough to host it all.

Do not make the "comunity" out to be something it is not.

This forum is for people who make the intended use of the global registration system. It is very much like a private forum for a server, just at a higher level. Server owners and admin staff can allways discuss Bans and policy in there own private forums. Just like owners can in this fourm. It is for info that may be of interest to all serious servers that use the global system.

This group is not a reward, it is not a treat. it is a service for people that make use of the global login. Members will not have any more rights or privleges then anyone else. They will not "chose" who goes on masterban. They will not set network polciy. It's just a place to make there lives easyer. Again we are not a democracy. Being part of the "comunity" realy dosn't mean you have a right to anything. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the real deal of it.

Yes the 24/7 thing is to limit the group to servers that are in it for the long hual. Not servers that are conditional on a parent. Sorry but if you realy want to be serious about running a server, get some real hosting it's not that hard. Every server that asks to join will be handled seperately. SP is a special case since it's owner is basicly not involved anymore, so a member of it's admin staff will be added instead. So the "rules" are flexable.

If you arn't in the group, then you arn't in the group. If you set up a server just to be in the group, 1) your wasting your time, there are like 200 servers allready, and 2) you may not be let in anyway because of your reasons for making the server in the first place. If your current server is not using global registration then you must have your own way of dealing with your admin issues and that's perfectly fine, have at it, keep doin' what your doin'. Then you don't realy need to be part of the group since you arn't realy using the system. If a server isn't realy admined activly, well they kind of get what they pay for in admins and bans then. It's not our job to apply bans or policy to servers that are not admined, that's the owners job. If we wanted all servers run the same way, we'd run the servers and just not list the ones we did not controll. But that's not how bzflag works.

Basicly serious servers only please.

I know WinXP is miffed that he's not in the group, as well I'm sure a number of the other younger server owners are as well. It's not a club, you don't have to be part of all things, you'll get over it.

Also this thread is not a discussion of this new forum, it is simply an announcement. I simply states the changes to the fourms.
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Post by Tropican8 » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:12 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:Bans are a thing between servers and players. They are not a network wide "comunity" thing.

Do not make the "comunity" out to be something it is not.

Being part of the "comunity" realy dosn't mean you have a right to anything. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the real deal of it.
I actually made that statement hoping for a quick response to avoid the inevitable whining that has already taken place. I didn't mean it to be the base of everyone's arguments.
JeffM2501 wrote:This forum is for people who make the intended use of the global registration system. It is very much like a private forum for a server, just at a higher level. Server owners and admin staff can allways discuss Bans and policy in there own private forums. Just like owners can in this fourm. It is for info that may be of interest to all serious servers that use the global system.

SP is a special case since it's owner is basicly not involved anymore, so a member of it's admin staff will be added instead. So the "rules" are flexable.
1. I use global reg. I have no local groups whatsoever. Though my group file has no TALK in EVERYONE, only in VERIFIED, unregged users can still talk. I don't really feel like troubleshooting the problem nor do I think there is a need to.

2. My server was up 24/7 the whole summer, went down for a little this fall, and was 24/7 for the month of December minus a bad crash from a plugin.

3. Several high-profile troublemakers have visited my server that I have had to alert people about.

4. My server staying up is completely reliant on if I need to reboot in Windows for school. (This would be very rare, only for a non-wineable windows program I have to run, and I would restart my computer along with my server as soon as I'm done) And I don't have a 'bedtime' when I have to shut down because of parents or anything like that.

Based on these four facts, am I eligible? (Its not a problem if I'm not, I've already arranged to get the ips/alerts from someone else)

Also is there any way to create a admin/owner group by simply adding every .cop and .admin group in the forums? I assumed that would be easier for everyone. Could we still do this to limit the admin whining and reserve the owner forum for serious offenders?

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Post by Spazzy McGee » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:36 pm

Yeah, i agree with tropican. I don't really care wether I'm in this group or not, but it would be nice to know who I should be banning, what with all the cheaters atm. My server dosn't go up as often as i'd like, but i hope to be getting it running at least 12/7 soon. I see no reason for only allowing 24/7 servers like silvercat, afterall the cheaters arn't going to stick to those servers.
Surely it would be so much better for all of us if all server owners are allowed in. Obviously, if you have been cheating in the past and set up a server just to get in the group, you won't be allowed.
I dunno. Do what you think is best.
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Post by Winny » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:48 pm

Tropican8 wrote:
JeffM2501 wrote:Bans are a thing between servers and players. They are not a network wide "comunity" thing.

Do not make the "comunity" out to be something it is not.

Being part of the "comunity" realy dosn't mean you have a right to anything. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's the real deal of it.
I actually made that statement hoping for a quick response to avoid the inevitable whining that has already taken place. I didn't mean it to be the base of everyone's arguments.
JeffM2501 wrote:This forum is for people who make the intended use of the global registration system. It is very much like a private forum for a server, just at a higher level. Server owners and admin staff can allways discuss Bans and policy in there own private forums. Just like owners can in this fourm. It is for info that may be of interest to all serious servers that use the global system.

SP is a special case since it's owner is basicly not involved anymore, so a member of it's admin staff will be added instead. So the "rules" are flexable.
1. I use global reg. I have no local groups whatsoever. Though my group file has no TALK in EVERYONE, only in VERIFIED, unregged users can still talk. I don't really feel like troubleshooting the problem nor do I think there is a need to.

2. My server was up 24/7 the whole summer, went down for a little this fall, and was 24/7 for the month of December minus a bad crash from a plugin.

3. Several high-profile troublemakers have visited my server that I have had to alert people about.

4. My server staying up is completely reliant on if I need to reboot in Windows for school. (This would be very rare, only for a non-wineable windows program I have to run, and I would restart my computer along with my server as soon as I'm done) And I don't have a 'bedtime' when I have to shut down because of parents or anything like that.

Based on these four facts, am I eligible? (Its not a problem if I'm not, I've already arranged to get the ips/alerts from someone else)

Also is there any way to create a admin/owner group by simply adding every .cop and .admin group in the forums? I assumed that would be easier for everyone. Could we still do this to limit the admin whining and reserve the owner forum for serious offenders?
Spazzy Mcgee wrote:Yeah, i agree with tropican. I don't really care wether I'm in this group or not, but it would be nice to know who I should be banning, what with all the cheaters atm. My server dosn't go up as often as i'd like, but i hope to be getting it running at least 12/7 soon. I see no reason for only allowing 24/7 servers like silvercat, afterall the cheaters arn't going to stick to those servers.
Surely it would be so much better for all of us if all server owners are allowed in. Obviously, if you have been cheating in the past and set up a server just to get in the group, you won't be allowed.
I dunno. Do what you think is best.

yes I agree with both of you on this subject, just because our server aren't up all the time, doesn't mean we should be denied access to the ip's of cheaters, and who we should be banning.
We are server owners who use global login, I know at least for me and tropican we have popular servers, just because they aren't up all the times doesn't mean we shouldn't have acces to the forum.

I mean co'mon it's a few extra people who can help to keep the "big major servers up to date" I know I have banned at least 8 cheaters in teh past few days, and because I don't have access to the ip list anymore, I have chose to shut down my server because I will have cheaters coming out of my *** we encourage global login and we have 12/7 servers yes big whoop they aren't up all the time ( most of them aren't) and plus what id my server is up 24/7 but it isn't being hosted by me? but I stil am the major maintainer of it. does this entitle me to teh privalege of this " server owners forum" ?

Plus we are using our bandwidth and money to run them, we should be allowed to access this forum.

If we are denied access then I think we sould not host, because we are not being allowed to joina group that is for us SERVER OWNERS

period.

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Spazzy McGee
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Post by Spazzy McGee » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:27 pm

Well Said!
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." - John Lennon

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