MAPs

General talk about the map making process.
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How many jumps up to a base does it take, before you become frustrated with a map?

1 jump- Tanks shouldnt jump unless there is a bomb under the tracks.
0
No votes
2 jumps- I cant jump well, so anything over a couple jumps ticks me off
1
9%
3 jumps- I have skill, but my brain can't handle all the different elevations
2
18%
4 jumps- Yes, I am scared of heights.
2
18%
5 jumps- My jump finger begins to cramp after 5.
3
27%
6 jumps- I need to get up as high as I can so I can camp with my GM
2
18%
7+ jumps- My tank as springs instead of treads.
1
9%
 
Total votes: 11

Grumbler
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MAPs

Post by Grumbler »

ok, i started playing alot lately..........mainly to get a good comparison of bzflag between my old machine and my new machine on the way...........but I have become frustrated with maps lately.

dragon.org has been playing my dragon map for a bit, but it is even a little jump happy for me............it would be great to see the center/corners reworked to make the map a little more wide open............and modify the route up to the top of the dragon's head to keep the jumping down...........couple transporters probably...............but with all that said, i am really out of initiative to actually do it. :)

I am still very much intrigued with the map style RedRock has put out there. It has that sort of subtle simplicity that is appealling.

HiX 2.0 is back up on xmission, to the joy of some, and pain to others...........include me in the later. I wasnt real fond of Xmission_replacement, and my 2nd version of that map is still a favorite 4-team ctf..........Stratego is a nice 2-team, but not as fun as RedRock's map.

so, with all that said, i am going to start a new map.......its cold outside, and I dont want to work around the house anymore :)...........so I think I will be building a 4-team ctf map based on some of RedRock's design concepts.

so......this is where you'all come in.

I am looking for some ideas/features/concepts/opinions to start with..........(because my brain is getting older, and I losing my ability to come up with original ideas :) )............I was thinking a six layer map. One layer/team with the top and bottom layers being transports to the other layers and the main battle areas.............of course that is a guess, never know how these things are going to work out.
.........you kids, get out of my tank...........
Rebel Chikorita
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Post by Rebel Chikorita »

good idea grumbla i like da 6 layer map idea . it would b neet to have a map dats like 6 different maps in one , since inter-server teleporters dunt seem a likely BZ feature anytime soon . buh a multi layer world map would b jus as good til then . maybee make it so dat certain teleporters can reach da next level(s) ? or have a big or small hole sumwher dat u can jump up/fall down to da next floor ? have 1 express hole in da corner wher u can fall str8 to da bottom?...or have no holes(openings) on any of da levels , traveling tween levels is thru teleporters only? i hope superflags wil b able to spawn ok on such a complex layered map . or maybee no superflags at all ? wil it b a FFA or CTF map ?
i like CTF no superflags ...buh dats jus da ducati player in mee suggesting... heh ;)



p.s.- i really did like betta ur new version of xmission grumbla... i tho they were gonna rotate maps every week or so... ?
Last edited by Rebel Chikorita on Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by dS »

Zerooooooooooooo.....

There should be 4 tall pits with one or two fire through only openings about half way down for lucky pot shots at the falling tank and the base at the bottom. Multiple levels sound intriguing but strategically placed teleporters are the best method for transport on it. Jumps should be rare and for the purpose of the well crafted shot through the pit side openings or over some cover at the nesting little GM fragmongers. Other jumps should be made to be more of a risk manuever (with payoff, of course). Perhaps a last mile runner to the pit opening of each for the desperate shooter to take a last volley from afar at the flag snarf'n begger in hopes of a miracle. One way tele's out of the pit bottom facing away from the action and enough protection to keep the SW threat from killing on re-entry after capture. It definitely needs to be a little tougher to get to the enemy flag and alot tougher to run the gauntlet to capture it. Yet not impossible for even a marginally talented player like myself to take a run at it.

Do you hear that voice? "If you build it, they will come."
Is this Heaven? Nah, it's Iowa.

dS
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Post by Grumbler »

ok, here is the first crack at it. one of those, it hasnt quite turned out like i wanted maps. I have noticed that even though the block count(177) and file size(14kb) are quite low, the map is a little sluggish.......probably because of the overall size of the blocks.


the map can support a large number of tanks, so dont get too lost. I incorporated a couple tricks, but nothing fancy.
Attachments
Tier.map
Tier v1.0
(13.64 KiB) Downloaded 278 times
.........you kids, get out of my tank...........
trepan
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Post by trepan »

Those large 260x260x3 blocks cause my FPS to quickly
drop from 120+ to less then 20 with about 5 shots floating
across them (with lighting and all of the goodies turned on).

I chopped up the blocks, and it seems to improve performance
with respect to the shot lighting, at the expense of dropping my
no-shot FPS from about 120 to 108.

Please let me know if this trick helps.
Attachments
chopped.map
(31.15 KiB) Downloaded 317 times
Grumbler
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Post by Grumbler »

trepan,

i tried it.......didnt notice the same improvement, it actually dropped ~10 fps(normal = ~100fps, chopped = ~90fps) when I went to the chopped version. I wonder if this could be a video card driver. I am using an nvidia 5200 with the latest drivers......the computer is the 550mhz slug........

on the side, all the link locations were messed up????...........not sure how that happened..........

I would be curious to find out if there is an issue here, since I like the idea of multiple tier worlds.
.........you kids, get out of my tank...........
trepan
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Post by trepan »

Grumbler,
The links were all off by one, my fault.
The improvement is really seen when
driving across one of those big boxes
and shooting. I'm running with a GeForce3
on a 1.53GHz linux box, latest drivers.
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Post by Grumbler »

I was talking with patl*22 about this, he was conjecturing that the lighting effects of the bullet travelling across the large block could account for the drop in lagstats.................and since I do not run with lighting on by default there could be issues there.

i am serving the map right now(the non-chop version 2).............there may be other changes necessary.
.........you kids, get out of my tank...........
Grumbler
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Post by Grumbler »

version 2.0, after playing, i found something annoying..........like how to figure out which teleporter takes you to what level........so i added some key features that should help there, i also eliminated a lot of blocks because there were just causing problems.


laser has a big advantage on the bottom when there are only a few players, but i think i will leave that in.


i think this rev fixes many of the fps issues, at least on my machine..............can only hope it works for the majority.

:)
Attachments
Tier_nonChop.map
Tier v2.0

*a non chopped version
(13.39 KiB) Downloaded 303 times
.........you kids, get out of my tank...........
trepan
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Post by trepan »

Yup, that is exactly what the problem is.
I just tried your new map, and get 87 FPS
with lighting turned off, and 15 FPS with
lighting turned on. It's too bad the OpenGL
does it's lighting per-vertex level instead
of per-pixel. Could eventually go with a
multi-texture solution or a pixel-shader, but
that sounds like work :o)

P.S. I had this same problem with my
Coliseum map, and I actually had to add
more segments to it to make it playable with
lighting turned on (which does look a good
bit better IMHO).
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Post by JeffM »

the per vert stuff would be fine, if we put the geo in a list on the card, but we don't, or even a vertex aray.
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trepan
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Post by trepan »

not an easy way to deal with variable LOD, is it?
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Post by Grumbler »

trepan,

i assume you had an automated way to "chop" those blocks............don't suppose you could do it again with the new rev...........i would like to serve the map and see if there are other issues. :)


I actually served the map last night, but I think you need >15 players on this map to make it the insane mad house I was going for. :)
.........you kids, get out of my tank...........
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Post by JeffM »

there are ways to put that stuff in the card, compiled vertex arrays and stuff, and it's not REALLY a LOD, it's just a segmentation. If we did max segmentation once, sent that to the card, the extra geo time would be nothing compared to what we waste now sending the geo to the card every single time. on modern T&L hardware it would be a lot faster, just use a bit more card mem ( but that's what it's there for ).

BZFlag is based on software openGL renderers, and it's killing us with modern hardware.
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Post by trepan »

This is the Tier_nonChop.map, but chopped up.
I've divided each 260 x 260 block into 64 boxes.
I you want to pick a different level of subdivision,
I can post the source.
Attachments
TierChop2.map
8x8 subdivs
(30.94 KiB) Downloaded 323 times
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