Do you think CAMPING is "really" bad?

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Knox
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Do you think CAMPING is "really" bad?

Post by Knox » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:54 pm

I always asked my: "What's so bad on camping?"
If you stay at ON places all the time, that's boring, but changing the places in a regularly rhythm (changing all 2 minutes the place you are).
That can't be bad, or ........................... your opinion:
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Post by blast » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:03 pm

Camping is subjective. I've had people call me a camper when I shoot them once with a GM. But, I did do a lot of camping in the past. Now I like to move around and chase my victims with missiles.

If there's a camper, kill them. If they have a GM, get a ST. If they have a Laser, get a Cloak. If they have a super bullet...um... jump? Meh, anyway, if you're on a map with really good camping locations that are well protected, it might just be a map flaw. People will use map flaws to their advantage.
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Post by Joe-Schmoe » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:18 pm

There's nothing wrong with camping in and of itself.

However if one player is just dominating, then it would be nice if others in that room could have a chance. This is the real problem, it is merely accentuated by camping.

Also, if everyone avoids campers, they'll be forced to leave their safe area.
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Post by ducktape » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:27 pm

When i camp on GU and i do alot. its not just Camping forever and Pwning everyone with out moving at all. I will camp waiting for someone to jump up and i will shoot them then i get down and move on. Thats what alot of people do i've noticed. Now if your just Camping insanely not moving at all Quol will come and Kill you.
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Post by Longhair » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:57 pm

The only time it's irritated me is in the case of base spawn camping.

By this I DON'T mean the old scenario in Overlord where somebody on red captures green's flag, and a red player with SW is waiting under it. That's a valid strategy in my mind. Ditto for Pillbox or Ducati where other teammates are ready for you to capture the enemy flag.

What I DO mean is the type of person who simply waits and waits and waits at the enemy base and kills players who are just joining the game. It's especially obnoxious when the camper has geno.

Fortunately, this is rare, as it gets boring really fast, and the offending player usually ends up being taunted as a lamer if not /kill ed by an admin.

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Post by Grace F » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:32 pm

I don't mind a camper, although it can depend on why they are doing it. It's usually a valid reason during GU matches but sometimes on other maps it 's just plain annoying.
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Post by F687/s » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:35 pm

It all depends.

You may see me GM camp sometimes, possibly if my score is down (though I've learned to ignore my score), or if it seems easy enough. However, I really dislike people who just stay in one (somewhat inaccessible) place and camp forever while their score skyrockets.

As for spawn camping, it all depends on the player's motivation, too.

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Post by macsforme » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:20 pm

blast wrote:If there's a camper, kill them. If they have a GM, get a ST. If they have a Laser, get a Cloak. If they have a super bullet...um... jump?
Indeed. There are almost no cases where campers can get into positions where they are totally impregnable. If there are such spots, it's a map/configuration flaw. Methods of taking campers out aren't always obvious, but with a little bit of thought (and often teamwork), the solutions come to you. For instance, if someone is sitting up on a high ledge with GM, and there's only one way to approach (I'm thinking of Overlord in particular), you might need a teammate to sit underneath the camper to stop him from locking on you, then you can take him out more easily.

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Post by Avatar » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:43 am

Constitution wrote:Indeed. There are almost no cases where campers can get into positions where they are totally impregnable. If there are such spots, it's a map/configuration flaw. Methods of taking campers out aren't always obvious, but with a little bit of thought (and often teamwork), the solutions come to you. For instance, if someone is sitting up on a high ledge with GM, and there's only one way to approach (I'm thinking of Overlord in particular), you might need a teammate to sit underneath the camper to stop him from locking on you, then you can take him out more easily.
The GM tower on the southwest corner of Badgerking's map would also fall into this category. Unfortunately, not many people seem to be willing to take a blocking position to let somebody else get in and kill the GM - they all want to make the kill themselves and often times mindlessly frag anybody else that gets close (not that it's always a bad thing - it's saved my arse MANY a time while holding that very spot :D ).

On the actual topic of this thread, I also say that it's subjective. Sometimes going against a camper can be just a mild challenge, but, yeah, it can be really annoying when you find yourself in a position where the camper has you dead to rights at virtually every attempt to stop them and nobody else will coordinate to take them out with you.
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Post by A Hobo » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:42 am

Avatar wrote:The GM tower on the southwest corner of Badgerking's map would also fall into this category. Unfortunately, not many people seem to be willing to take a blocking position to let somebody else get in and kill the GM.
As Constitution said, all that is needed is an ST flag. You just have to wait to see when the camping person has thier backed turned, then sneak-up and kill them. Or A person could find an SW flag, then with amazing skill (*cough*me*cough*) Gm dodge their way up to the tower and kill them, asuming the camper doesn't run and other players don't foolishly kill you. Or a person can get SB and hide behind the other blocks/pyras on the upper levels and shoot at them. I've done/seen them all done before. :P :P :twisted:

Oops, did I just spill a secret? :doh: :slick:

Anyways... I like campers. It gives me more of a challenge when I'm just floating around on a map. I love to kill/try to kill them. Most people who camp only pay attention to 1 or 2 other tanks at a time. It's easy to get close to them when they are "busy", then eventually PWN them. Then again it all depends on the map and the position the camper and you are in.....

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Post by RexFlex » Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:55 pm

Avatar wrote:Unfortunately, not many people seem to be willing to take a blocking position to let somebody else get in and kill the GM - they all want to make the kill themselves and often times mindlessly frag anybody else that gets close
This is problematic in general. A lot of people complain about camping on servers like Badgers, but few will cooperate or even give you the chance to get the camper before they take you on. Many times I shake my head in wonder as I get taken out moments before killing the camper, only for my assassin to die at the hands of the camper a second later. If they had waited a moment for the camper to die, then they probably would still have an opportunity to take me out without dying themselves.

Not that I approve much of players working together when they aren't on the same team in general. But strategically you will be better off if a camper is removed. If another player has a good chance of killing a camper with their flag and you don't, then the answer is obvious.

Anyway, on the original matter about camping being good or bad -people's opinions on it will always be highly subjective. I've lost count of times where people complain about another person's playing style, usually of a camping nature, only to camp in another way themselves. Some people think camping only involves certain flags, if the camper is on elevated ground or behind a one-way wall, or if the camping involves no movement. The list goes on and on.

If a map host doesn't want any camping then they can design the map to discourage it. A map like badgers clearly has been designed to allow camping in several different forms, but none of them are remotely unbeatable camping positions.

Maps that are CTF obviously have that issue when a person can camp the enemy base when their team flag is captured. I can understand people having issues with that, but again it comes down to map design and team strategy. Unless the map is designed against it, a team should be able to take care of opponents who are trying to camp the base pending the flag capture. Base camping should only work in abundance if one or both of those two factors have been handled poorly.
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Post by Easy Target » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:54 pm

I especially hate campers on bloodbath, except i've thought of it this way, just like blast said, you can always counter a camper. Laser, get cl; gm, get st; sb, get an st and get ready to jump; and geno, well...hmm... there really is no counter for that, except prevent own team from getting genoed. The smart thing to do in one of those situations is to just kill your teammate that will get genoed. Of course this will result in you getting killed too, if the server is tk auto-kill; but it will save your whole team a huge headache.

I've also begun to look at camping (gm, laser, sb) as a strategy. they are all used to repel the other team from overcoming your own. The only version of those 3 types of camping that i despise, is gm camping in other base. It kind of isnt fair, because majority of the time it becomes SPAWN CAMPING (<== the worst kind) and then people get really frustrated. But most people who camp usually call it sniping for lasers, and i've noticed that it is actually a smart technique, because, the team that controls the camp spots, usually controls the field...

but thats just my take on the matter... :wink:
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Post by mrbadaim » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:41 am

For me it depends on the situation?? Normally campers are annoying but if its 2 against 15 or more on say, gm war server I will turn into the biggest A$$hole you will ever fear in your life. (I haven't played in 6mo) The last time I played I pretty much spawn camped the whole board for about 5-7min(?) My team was outnumbered. But what i really have no use for is a lazer camper - Mrbadaim

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Post by OU812 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:44 am

I think there are definitely places where camping is acceptable. I play a lot a URBAN JUNGLE and people complain about campers a lot. However, every camping spot there has a weakness. It is the hob of every person annoyed by the camper to exploit that weakness. Luckily the two best flags to camp with have shot limits. And that is just good map making.

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Post by october rust » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:42 pm

imho there are different kinds of camping, and depending on the game style it can be very annoying (like base camping in a public server). tho if its a match, then base camping when possible is a good strategy and part of the game, and should just be seen as a disrespect or so maybe if the match score is high enough. so if theres a flaw on the map that allows players to camp in an unfair way, maybe the issue should be taken to the server admin - i think complaining of a player is never the way to go.

there are also some other situations commonly labeled as camping by some players that doesnt actually consist on camping, or at least not in the way camping is usually done. take fixed maps in example, specially for ffa servers and public ctf (where teams are uneven most of the time, teams score doesnt matter and ctf is sort of an option). using its good spots are not just a matter of fighting from a higher ground, but improving your positioning skills and valueing more your lifes. its common to see players complaining of people that doesnt expose much, which is kinda silly, since exposing unnecessarely is, mostly, not a very wise thing to do.

in theory, the perfect player would be the one that with the least level of exposure is able to position itself in a way that allows to kill its opponents when necessary and help the team in whichever way it needs. so walking in open field as a happy target may not be elegant at all aswell :)

briefly, i think base camping on public servers should be taken care with plugins, like the shockwave on capture that silvercat pillbox had a while ago (which could maybe be extended in a way to /kill an enemy tank sitting around for more than 10 seconds or so to avoid base spawn killers?).

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Post by Wreckage » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:06 pm

Gm dodge their way up to the tower and kill them, asuming the camper doesn't run and other players don't foolishly kill you.
Yeah, often when someone has devised a plan someone kills them on their way to getting the camper. I know I would -- campers don't bother me that much, especially when I camp, because I am such a great gm dodger... 8)
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Post by anonimoose » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:28 pm

Yah.... on some servers camping just pisses me off, but some servers (ie Bloodbath) it seems necessary. Many of the times that I don't camp with a laser on the second level my team gets overrun with enemies... and with such a map.... it really seems like it was designed for camping (in many forms).

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Post by captainmack » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:28 pm

Ive been on a map that had a one way pyramid you could shoot out of but noone could shoot in. It was in the edge of the map and there was plenty of space around it. lasers had no shot limit and the reload time was fast. someone just sat in there and lasered the whole map, ricocheting every, usually killing 5 people a shot. eventually everyone decided not to kill anyone, but focus our energy on this guy. we killed him within 2 minutes by working together and storming.

i guess the point of this is that even if someone is camping in the best possible place, there is still a way to kill him if you all work together, and thta is the fun in bzflag. persoanly i dont mind camping
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Post by RexFlex » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:26 am

captainmack wrote:Ive been on a map that had a one way pyramid you could shoot out of but noone could shoot in. It was in the edge of the map and there was plenty of space around it. lasers had no shot limit and the reload time was fast.
I know this map and had played it. That camping spot and flag choice was particularly bad and really needed to be changed. When I encountered its use, I was fortunate enough to get stealth and had managed to creep up behind the camping tank and take it out because they weren't too careful with making sure that no-one would creep up on them that way. Ironically that player then PM'd me suggesting I was being less than brave by using a stealth flag :|

It is a classic example of map design gone wrong as the imbalance it allows will frustrate most players into not being interested in playing the map anymore. I did use that spot myself once (to prove a point to that other player) - but I did voluntarily vacate it after the point was made.

Camping spots need vunerabilities or at least to be limited from laying waste to the whole map.
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Post by plokijuy » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:43 am

IMHO camping isnt really that bad, its gets boring and not challenging enough. On a CTF map i think that base camping is really bad because it is unfair on the players of the team of which the flag was caputred.
I'd say that camping is just a really easy way to get a high score.
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Post by Grace F » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:37 am

plokijuy wrote:On a CTF map i think that base camping is really bad because it is unfair on the players of the team of which the flag was caputred.
Well, it's the teams fault for letting their flag get captured in the first place ;) And no I don't support base camping. Waiting for players to spawn after a cap so you can kill them is just sad.
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Post by too much loving » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:20 am

RexFlex wrote: Not that I approve much of players working together when they aren't on the same team in general. But strategically you will be better off if a camper is removed. If another player has a good chance of killing a camper with their flag and you don't, then the answer is obvious.
Hmm.. in badgerking the GM has a shot limit of 50 shots, so i think that it is unlikely that a GM he will manage to kill you twice before running out of shots. On the other hand you get one point from killing an assasin. So if you just look at the points then I think that it pays of to kill assasins.

In the old days bzflag may have had a GM-camping problem, but then the developers introduced shot limits and many servers have started changing the parameters so that you can not steal a GM flag by killing a GM-camper. I also think that the GM-guidance have been made less effective. All in all I don't think bzflag has a GM-camping problem anymore. To me, camping is just a healthy part of the game. :D

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Post by Grace F » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:09 pm

Assasins? :)
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Post by CUPCAKE » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:37 pm

Camping should just be done to an extent. Some cases just aren't... right.
I'd say that theres two typed of camping. Mass camping (just sitting and shooting everyone, this includes spawn camps), and wait camping (waiting for someone to jump or get nearby, whatever). Mass camping just gets really annoying after a while, and then no one likes you. However, wait camping (I need a better word, but I don't know one...) is a good defense against flag captures or whatever else. Without it, there would be a lot more caps on the GU league.

But thats just my opinion.

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Post by macsforme » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:50 pm

Grace F wrote:And no I don't support base camping. Waiting for players to spawn after a cap so you can kill them is just sad.
This may not be popular opinion, but IMHO, spawn camping after a cap is part of the "winner's bounty." :) It's not possible on all maps, and is often made difficult by world weapons... but if a player can get past all that, I say more power to him/her.

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