Do you think CAMPING is "really" bad?

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Post by OPTIMUSprime » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:36 pm

I Dont think camping is "Bad" But It depends on the server. But I still have this problem. If You are Sniping, Are you Camping?

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Post by Boberto the Rojo Penguin » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:41 pm

I think that camping takes some of the fun out of the game thought it's fun for you when you do it. That makes it a really difficult choice on wheather it's bad or not.

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Post by CUPCAKE » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:52 pm

OPTIMUSprime wrote:I Dont think camping is "Bad" But It depends on the server. But I still have this problem. If You are Sniping, Are you Camping?
Sniping is kind of... intended camping. The person who made the map makes the sniping spots so that people can snipe/camp. So, in a way, thats a good type of camping.

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Post by Grace F » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:29 am

Constitution wrote:
Grace F wrote:And no I don't support base camping. Waiting for players to spawn after a cap so you can kill them is just sad.
This may not be popular opinion, but IMHO, spawn camping after a cap is part of the "winner's bounty." :) It's not possible on all maps, and is often made difficult by world weapons... but if a player can get past all that, I say more power to him/her.
In that case, if you ever did it to me. I'd wait till you killed us all, take our flag and turn your back ;)
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Post by macsforme » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:10 am

Grace F wrote:In that case, if you ever did it to me. I'd wait till you killed us all, take our flag and turn your back ;)
If I'd killed you all, there'd be no one left to turn my back to. :P

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Post by Grace F » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:07 pm

Constitution wrote:
Grace F wrote:In that case, if you ever did it to me. I'd wait till you killed us all, take our flag and turn your back ;)
If I'd killed you all, there'd be no one left to turn my back to. :P
lol you know what I meant, everyone else apart from me. Smarty.
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Post by ratman99 » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Camping isn't bad at all. Its just part of the game. I think some people get mixed up between spawnkilling and camping. Spawnkilling is an easy way to get your score higher, but it isn't allowed on some servers like 2 tanks.


I have no idea what spawncamping is. ukiki has been whining to me to stop spawnkilling, but i keep telling him its not spawnkilling because you shot at me lol

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Post by Sky King » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:18 am

I look at it this way. "Camping" is too broad a term, and I sort of divide it up. There is sniping, and then there is other camping.

In some cases, camping is a useful and effective tactic that is often very much a part of the map designer's intent. Boxy, Lasermania, Bloodbath, Two Tanks and others are sniper-oriented maps by design. Call it camping all you want, but sniping is vital on some of these maps. Teams that lack experienced snipers will often be overrun. If you don't like people who "laser camp" then do NOT go on these maps. It's unfair to go to a laser-sniping map and then complain about how people are laser-sniping.

There are cases where camping is potentially bad. If you are doing it to exploit a map flaw that was not intended by the designer, then it can be annoying. Spawn camping is also an exploitation... Somehow or another the tanks need to spawn into the battle, and designing a map that protects you during the spawn process typically creates other negative playability consequences. Thus spawn-camping is usually a rather unsportsmanlike exploitation of a necessary shortcoming of the game. I like the trend I am seeing, such as on Two Tanks, where spawn camping on the enemy tank's back deck is now expressly forbidden.

But it really comes down to personal integrity, as it always does in an online game. If your camping is fair and within the "spirit of the game" and tactically benefits your team... then rock on. If your camping is exploiting an outnumbered team, exploiting a map or BZ shortcoming, or is creating an unfair situation, then it shouldn't be part of the game.

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Post by macsforme » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:37 am

Thank you for your very insightful post, Sky King. It's refreshing to see people still giving of their time to discuss the intricacies of gameplay.

Ultimately, I think that the sportsmanship element of many tactics are going to be subjective. You will likely even find people who think that performing a genocide team-kill is within appropriate bounds, because the game doesn't physically prevent people from doing it. And indeed, the game could be changed to disallow just about any kind of behavior. Most players' views about such actions are more moderate, but I don't see any definite standard for what is sportsmanlike conduct in-game myself.

Personally, I am not one to sit and camp for long periods of time, simply because I value my time and would much sooner use it dueling it out with other players than to sit and wait for someone to jump into my path every couple of minutes. However, if I find a powerful flag, I will certainly find a safe place to use it... which often means finding a high ledge out of the way. Likewise, in CTF games (where positional advantage is important), I will sometimes hang out in one position of advantage so as to protect it, or assist in my team's attack.

As for spawn camping, like I said above, I'm not one to typically hang out for long periods of time in one place. Furthermore, if a map has mines, I would certainly mine the enemy base so as to clear it (and yes, to gain points) if given the opportunity.

Now, it's true that spawn camping restricts the opportunities that the opponent has to defend itself. However, they were put in that position by their own failure to prevent a capture, so why not view it as just a part of capturing flags? If you want to give them a chance, then let's set up world weapons or a plugin to kill players near the base after a capture. (It's significant to note that on maps with onCap world weapons, more players are probably killed by the world weapons (even if they weren't intending to spawncamp, but just happened to be in the area) than players that the world weapons are supposed to defend.)

So ultimately, it's up to the views of the server owners, of course. However, it's not as if there were no counter-measures. If someone complains about spawncamping (or in the case of server owners, makes a rule against it), I will personally encourage them to set up some way of circumventing them instead. And if a player is clever enough to circumvent the anti-spawncamping measures, I will say more power to him/her, and then encourage the server owners to fix the exploit.

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Post by Knox » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:17 pm

Grace F wrote:And no I don't support base camping. Waiting for players to spawn after a cap so you can kill them is just sad.
I think so too! Camping right next to base is not very fair. Camping anywhere else is acceptable. Sure, there are some places where its hard to hit you during you camp and you can kill a lot of player, but base camping is still the worst kind of camping.
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Post by hj » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:43 pm

i think it depends on the map. there are maps that really pretty much allow camping and sniping. for example, two tanks. that's definitely a map where people camp and where its intended for you to camp/snipe. but on other maps, its totally stupid and ruins the game.
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Post by Tank 52 » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:22 am

I like camping next to an enemy base inside a pyramid you can shoot through on the inside but not the outside, with ST. It works great, get me. :wink:
Try to look unimportant,they may be low on ammo
Teamwork is essential,it gives them other people to shoot at.

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Post by twh » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:01 pm

It's a War game and for me anything(except cheating) is all right.with the exception of spawn camping,twh

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Post by Quantum Tank » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:38 pm

I agree with OPTIMUSprime at the top of the page: It really depends on weather you are camping or sniping. Sniping requires skill, camping does not. They're hard to define, but generally I'd say sniping is shooting from afar (or maybe not) or in a hard to reach place, with ST or GM or L or something like that. Camping I'd say is when you stay in one place (doesn't have to be out of reach like sniping) and fire when anybody comes near you. Usually camping is with Laser or SW.

Oh and spawn camping. That is BAD BAD BAD.

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Post by A Random Bastage » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:43 pm

As several of the others have pointed out:

-Spawn Camping - HUGELY bad. I really do see it as HIGHLY unsportsmanlike, and refuse to do it. Some may view it as "fair" after a capture - but I want the other team back in the game, and new folks to get into the game. Not just cheap points when they had no chance to even move.

-Base camping - sometimes valid tatic. But if all you can do is laser camp and laser spam - then it is bad. Most know me from MissleWar - (and some may lament that on occasions) but if you are up against the likes of Brutal Deluxe, SSE, Gan or the like - keeping Geno out of there hands is mandatory for your team's survival. All tactics except cheating are probably needed!

-Sniping - Fair game - and even in MissleWar - you need some laser and GM specialists.

I will answer for my 'GM-camping' I *love* knocking cloaked tanks down... I just get the chuckles from that. Aside from that - I have seen that keeping WG and CL attacks blunted down ensures your team's better odds. So I have chosen to become proficient with GM and ST. for now. Hey...am still new to the game, but I really enjoy MissleWar. Besides...did I mention I love knocking down CL tanks ?

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Post by io » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:25 pm

My Personal favorite Map is LaserMania ^^

Is this map a camper map?

Yeah, i would say it is

Is this map good ?

Yes it is ^^

Is Camping Bad ?

Um... in the Gu League i would say yes, on lasermania no ^^
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Post by CUPCAKE » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:00 pm

In GU, camping is really important. Its the most powerful defensive play, because chances of messing up are less than other strategies. It forces the person to find a different way to get to where they are going.

So not all camping is bad in GU. If you go onto a public server and sit up on the block in the middle the whole time, thats just dumb, but other ways are fine and important. I don't get why some people complain so much about camping on GU, when all the person was doing is waiting for an opportunity to get down. If they have few other options, then its hardly their fault. Especially if they can't go anywhere else.

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Post by khazhyk » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:29 pm

I don't get why some people complain so much about camping on GU, when all the person was doing is waiting for an opportunity to get down.
This is exactly what I think, and due to this happening so much in games I've seen, if anyone says anyone is camping, it gets me extremely annoyed. Especially because most people I've seen saying someone is a camper just are sore losers (not all). Of course, it is a spawn camper, they have every right to complain about spawn campers.
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Post by macsforme » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:02 am

A Random Bastage wrote:-Spawn Camping - HUGELY bad. I really do see it as HIGHLY unsportsmanlike, and refuse to do it. Some may view it as "fair" after a capture - but I want the other team back in the game, and new folks to get into the game. Not just cheap points when they had no chance to even move.
Why would it be only about the points? If you blow them away from their base, that means you can take their flag... it's not just about the points. It isn't fair to say that they had "no chance"... they had a perfectly good chance to avoid being in that position--by preventing you from capturing their flag. The reason they are all bunched together is because the other team put them in that position, and as such, why doesn't the other team have the right to kill several or many of them all at once?
CUPCAKE wrote:In GU, camping is really important. Its the most powerful defensive play, because chances of messing up are less than other strategies. It forces the person to find a different way to get to where they are going.

So not all camping is bad in GU.
Hix is also designed so that no one spot is camper-safe. No matter where you are, there's a way to get you. The lack of flags also makes it difficult to "camp" in the usual sense.

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Post by Quantum Tank » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:04 am

After getting around to play a bit on the new missile war (finally), I've decided to revise my definition. Camping with laser is the worst. It requires absolutely no skill whatsoever except fast reflexes and hand-eye coordination. We have other games (and aspects of BZflag) for that. It's also just a cheap way to get a good score.

And spawnkilling. Don't even get me started on that. I will actually go as far as to tk somebody on my team who is set up to do that right before we capture the flag. (shhh)

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Post by TheOneAndOnly » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:10 am

I think camping is very annoying when it is done to you, but you have to admit, it is fun spawn killing people, i usually give about 4 seconds for the person to get into the flow before i kill them (or they kill me).
Once again it depends on the map.
i think two tanks is a popular spawn killing map, spawn camping (killing all the guys when they spawn after you have captured their flag) is not allowed, although it is kind of fun when you do it, but you still have the guilty concience.
i think that i totally agree with Quantum Tank about Laser being the worst.
I think one some servers they should re-inforce the rule of no spawn killing, because on some maps, it really isn't fair, and it makes me angry when i get spawnkilled, especially by my teammates!!!
If I'd killed you all there'd be no one left to turn my back to :P
sorry Constitution but Grace is kind of right there, if Grace died before the flag was captured, she could spawn after you killed all the other guys, leaving her to completely own you when you turned your back (:P to that)
Overall, i hate spawnkilling, even when you do it, because you feel guilty.
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Post by A Random Bastage » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:24 pm

Why would it be only about the points? If you blow them away from their base, that means you can take their flag... it's not just about the points. It isn't fair to say that they had "no chance"... they had a perfectly good chance to avoid being in that position--by preventing you from capturing their flag. The reason they are all bunched together is because the other team put them in that position, and as such, why doesn't the other team have the right to kill several or many of them all at once?

Killing players after a capture or just joining the game is strategic ? Sorry, with all due respect - but that is total *B.S.* It is completely and utterly about points.

Oh - sorry - you may have it right. It isn't about 'points' It is about 'cheap unsportsmanlike points'

Now, if you are *legitimately* in the process of going after a flag, someone spawns into the game, and you have to knock them off? No problem with that at all.

Setting up with a laser to hit the spawn point - telling your teammate to hold the capture until you are ready - justify it in your own mind however you want - I will consider anyone doing this a poor player at best.

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Post by macsforme » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:00 pm

A Random Bastage wrote:Killing players after a capture or just joining the game is strategic ? Sorry, with all due respect - but that is total *B.S.* It is completely and utterly about points.

Oh - sorry - you may have it right. It isn't about 'points' It is about 'cheap unsportsmanlike points'

Now, if you are *legitimately* in the process of going after a flag, someone spawns into the game, and you have to knock them off? No problem with that at all.
A flag on the base is often more vulnerable than a flag that is taken off to a safer place. If you can kill the entire opposing team after a capture, you can keep the flag on their base where it's more accessible. I'm thinking particularly of Overlord and Missile War 2 here.

Killing players who just joined may not have quite the strategic advantage... but what if you're sitting on the enemy base to prevent a flag capture? Someone joins and spawns... are you just going to let them shoot you? I wouldn't. It's just one kill, then they'll spawn in some random spot where they're likely to be much safer.

I'm not saying that people don't ever camp just for points... but the fact is that some camping offers a high strategic advantage in CTF-style games (which sadly often turn into the pursuit of points for some players).
A Random Bastage wrote:Setting up with a laser to hit the spawn point - telling your teammate to hold the capture until you are ready - justify it in your own mind however you want - I will consider anyone doing this a poor player at best.
Why? If we capture a flag and land the entire opposing team back on their base, why shouldn't it be our prerogative to blast them all away (even if there is no strategic advantage, although there often is)? I know it's frustrating to get blasted right after a capture... but seriously, unless the teams are way unbalanced and you're getting overrun, it's not terribly hard to defend your flag.

If it's that terrible of an issue, maps can be set up to prevent spawncamping. Furthermore, as our own FAQ says:

Q) [insert name here] is an camper!
A) There is no such thing as camping, go shoot them.

In other words, pick up a CL or ST, and go shoot them. :) There are generally no spots that are totally invulnerable on popular maps.
Ralf! wrote:sorry Constitution but Grace is kind of right there, if Grace died before the flag was captured, she could spawn after you killed all the other guys, leaving her to completely own you when you turned your back (Tongue to that)
Um, huh? If I was in any kind of decent position for spawncamping, I would be in view of the entire base, not half of it. If I even understood what you just said there.

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Post by A Random Bastage » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:20 am

Why? If we capture a flag and land the entire opposing team back on their base, why shouldn't it be our prerogative to blast them all away
Thank you for backing up my statements - it is about cheap, unsportsmanlike points.

Look, you can justify this in your own mind however you like. Setting up with a laser to hit the spawn point for new players coming in, or to get the cheap fast scores isn't about strategy and "helping them get to a safer spot"

It's cheap, lame and unsportsmanlike.

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Post by CUPCAKE » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:49 am

Okay, okay, but honestly, whos going to just sit by the base with laser and let the other team snipe them? You can't just turn you backs for a few minutes after a cap, because that just wouldn't make any sense.
As I see it, your team managed to cap, so you have the right to do what you want when they spawn. Its not "cheap, unsportsmanlike points" at all times. It could even be about capping again (like pass-camping in GU). Is capturing the flag now unsportsmanlike?

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