General Hostility Levels

Talk between players of the game about the game ( no personal attacks )
User avatar
Spectre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:33 pm

General Hostility Levels

Post by Spectre » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:06 am

Does anyone else feel like the general hostility of BZFlag players is rising? Six or seven years ago when I started playing, I had fun. Now BZFlag is practically nothing but high stress and constantly playing defense. Am I the only one noticing this, or does anyone else feel a bit like people are being hostile? If I'm just being a paranoid mess let me know, but I doubt I'm the only one.
Keeping Latin alive in 2766 AUC.

User avatar
SkillDude
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 336
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:50 pm
Location: United States

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by SkillDude » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:12 am

Yeah, at this point the player base is like as you described. With the exception of the league players / experienced players, most players are talking as if they are out there to destroy each other. This isn't necessarily unusual, as the most popular map at the moment, Apocalypse in Action is being run by Planet Mofo. And things were always crazy when it came to their servers. Players were told to "kick ass" and it created a sort of "Kill everyone no matter the cost" feeling.

This type of behavior seems to have spread to other areas of the BZFlag community that were not present before. Older maps are especially taking a hit. I see players who join servers that are known for its (What used to be) great administration and high respect for the younger players. Someone says a bad word after a death usually, or a cap, as if it was no problem. Players that know about this can say "language", tell them about the server message which explains the rule, or tell them to read the language / rules help file, but the response back is usually something even more rude. Poll kicks and bans are much more common, and leads to much misunderstanding.

I don't think this is going to change, this is how many games involving war are, so I don't see how this is too much different. I do respect the fact that this game was originally a fun project where players came on just for enjoyment and to learn about each other. I suggest if you want the best old type of feeling to stick to the league servers or the ones that the "noobs" hate, such as ducati or HIX style, and many other maps that prohibit jumping or revolve around ricochet.

User avatar
Sniper752
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:43 pm
Location: TRAVL Headquarters, Orbiting Mars in the year 2236

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Sniper752 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:38 am

I don't generally have too much trouble with it, though I do see it a lot more nowadays.
I do my best to promote having fun without tearing down other people. I also try to stay off apocalypse (always hated PM) I've tried to bring back some old servers that i've found on the forums and promote good sportsmanship, but no one gets on unless i seed it, and even then, they don't normally last long.
A lot of it also has to do with the way the whole world is going. years ago, the most violent movies didn't have much language in them; nowadays its hard to find a movie that has no language and the doesn't promote any wrong ideas (eg. its ok to do wrong in order to do right) The good players are leaving, and they are being replaced with fewer worse players.
Last edited by Sniper752 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
[center]::|:|::|Sniper752|::|:|::
Map Maker
Avid Airsofter
Owner: Hosting.BZAddict.net ports 5242 and 5243
Admin: bzsupreme.webarts.bc.ca[/center]

Iskskskks
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:09 am
Location: California

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Iskskskks » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:38 am

Yes I notice it it is very common on Popular servers like Planet MeFo because they just call you names etc. But, I still have fun playing. I just try to avoid the people who do it, It seems to work just fine. If I were a admin on the server that you find them on I would just mute them to avoid the attacks.

User avatar
Sniper752
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:43 pm
Location: TRAVL Headquarters, Orbiting Mars in the year 2236

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Sniper752 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:44 am

a bullet gone crazy wrote:If I were a admin on the server that you find them on I would just mute them to avoid the attacks.
I did that once (muted a guy) and still had to end up banning him cause we kept tk'ing me because he was mad that I muted him.
[center]::|:|::|Sniper752|::|:|::
Map Maker
Avid Airsofter
Owner: Hosting.BZAddict.net ports 5242 and 5243
Admin: bzsupreme.webarts.bc.ca[/center]

Iskskskks
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:09 am
Location: California

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Iskskskks » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:48 am

Ahh ok but still it sometimes works. Sometimes resulting in a ban. Good point though sniper. I'll try that! Later I just got bored and changed the server. I did not know a player would do any thing to annoy a player. :(

User avatar
Tanx
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:14 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Tanx » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:51 pm

part of it may be a side effect of mofo's ranking system, hostility seems to be directed at higher ranking players. Also a lot more anger towards the lesser skilled players on there who are getting hit with geno by players who are in the leagues. Well of course they're going to get hit more often then not. Commonly people saying geno-baiter, but I have yet to actually see a purposeful geno baiter, I usually ask baiter to see what the others think, partially been doing this, trying to get out of that habit. To me when I use it I'm trying to indirectly tell them to stay away for geno. Apoc feels impersonal, so people have no problem with hurling insults on those they don't view as another fellow human being. But when you get to know the people, you don't do that, you can't do that. They get some respect from you at some level. And people coming on with new names doesn't help. awhile back it was brought to my attention I was beginning to do this on GU, I realized they were right, I have g3force and pam to thank for that. Ever since I've tried as much as possible to avoid calling someone a "nab". The word itself sounds far more hostile then noob ever did. In fact I think it sound demeaning. Perhaps I need to expand this further. How often though did you hear this type of attitude on bzbattleground? Its not 6 or 7 years either, just compare it with just a year ago.

On some places that aren't league maps either this attitude is still there, fox burrow still feels calm, as do Louman's maps, hide and seek hills as well. Well actually not always, swiss boy comes and disrupts it, but after he's received his halfweekly ban all goes back to normal. All these maps have one thing in common that I see. Most of the players I see there have recognizable names. I don't know how many players it actually is, but I feel like the number of players causing this hostility, driving it that is, isn't very big. They seem to change names a lot, making it difficult to pinpoint. In my opinion these players could be a greater danger then the dwindling playerbase. I mean what new player would want to stay with bz after experiencing that? I mean I don't think I would thats for sure.
Perhaps this is the true cause of why bz is declining faster as of late.
known as: Tanx, Eoncho, ckw.
Bzflag player since 2001.

User avatar
MG Balloon
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:35 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by MG Balloon » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:00 am

I agree, mostly in Apocalypse In Action. I mean if you gave a language warning, some kind of automated plugin will make you say the worst things. Most Of the new players who join that server, will probably never play BZFlag ever again (some people have actually done that), and i am still wondering how its the most played on server. It is cool that its "free for all" but i think they misunderstood its meaning ...

User avatar
Sniper752
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:43 pm
Location: TRAVL Headquarters, Orbiting Mars in the year 2236

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Sniper752 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:45 pm

BoomSlang wrote:It is cool that its "free for all" but i think they misunderstood its meaning ...
Its not FFA (free-for-all) its CTF (capture the flag)
[center]::|:|::|Sniper752|::|:|::
Map Maker
Avid Airsofter
Owner: Hosting.BZAddict.net ports 5242 and 5243
Admin: bzsupreme.webarts.bc.ca[/center]

Iskskskks
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:09 am
Location: California

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Iskskskks » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:43 pm

I would say MeFo is a adult server......

User avatar
MG Balloon
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:35 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by MG Balloon » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:50 pm

BoomSlang wrote:
It is cool that its "free for all" but i think they misunderstood its meaning ...
Sniper752 wrote:
Its not FFA (free-for-all) its CTF (capture the flag)
What I mean With Free For All , Isnt The Game Style, I mean the idea, on how players can camp, spawn kill, do whatever they want almost (there ARE limits, no cheating for example)

User avatar
dartman
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 682
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:20 pm
Contact:

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by dartman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:19 pm

Idk, I like Mofo's language policy and find the "lang" plugin hilarious. There's nothing better about restricting the use of language through censorship, and the very idea that society has decided that certain groups of letters are inherently wrong, evil, or just rude regardless of context, and that we are therefore all obligated to be offended by their very use is a major point of confusion for me. They are only words, people. If someone is deliberately using those words to offend you by cursing you out, then feel free to take offense--but not because of the words used, but the deliberate intent to use words (of any kind) to attack you. Otherwise, I fail to see what it is about those words that makes them inherently "worse" than any other word. The quicker we as a society realize all of this, I think the better off we'll be.

That said, I too have noticed the general hostility level rising in BZFlag and also have the same impression as Tanx that it may just becoming from a small handful of trolls rather than the playerbase as a whole, but due to the shrinking playerbase, those trolls become much more noticeable and it starts to feel like they're everywhere, which in turn prevents people from wanting to stick around with the game. Fewer players causes trolls causes fewer players.

I think another thing we'd be better off without is the idea that we're all stuck with playing on Apocalypse or whatever else is currently the most populated on the server list. I've been guilty of this myself lately, especially when playing during late night hours when there's fewer players on in general. But a few years ago I could easily just hop on a completely empty server, wait around for a little while until someone joins, and then eventually get a fairly populated game going. If people were more willing to do this or have the patience to join the underpopulated servers, then no one would feel like "Man, I really hate Apocalypse, but it's the only one people are on right now so I guess it'll just have to do..." and we'd start to see some more activity on those other servers. Alternatively, Mofo could significantly reduce it's maximum player limit down from 200 or whatever it is right now to maybe 10 or 20, so that when people can't access it, they pick another server on the map to play on. But of course that's not my decision to make.

dereliction of duty
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by dereliction of duty » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:20 pm

a bullet gone crazy wrote:I would say MeFo is a adult server..
careful, I offended I Died Once or was it Darth Vadar when I said it was an adult server lol

dereliction of duty
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by dereliction of duty » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:23 pm

BoomSlang wrote:What I mean With Free For All , Isnt The Game Style, I mean the idea, on how players can camp, spawn kill
Camping is part of the game. If desired, a map can be created that helps to minimize it. There's even been a server or two that made it against their rules...but it's still part of the game.

Spawn kill on the other hand has always been deemed bad manners. However, just like the example of you can create a map to minimize camping, that map has been created with it in mind and is accepted.

Iskskskks
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:09 am
Location: California

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Iskskskks » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:50 pm

DEFenseMAN wrote:
a bullet gone crazy wrote:I would say MeFo is a adult server..
careful, I offended I Died Once or was it Darth Vadar when I said it was an adult server lol
How do you offend I_Died_Once he said it him self. No need to worry. :)

oops I misread his post sorry. :lol-old:

Green Manalishi
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:54 pm
Location: Badgerking's, Mystic Valley, Overdoze, Eria Ziel, Stalingrad, Clay Hills, Urban Jungle

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Green Manalishi » Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:07 pm

dartman wrote:Idk, I like Mofo's language policy and find the "lang" plugin hilarious. There's nothing better about restricting the use of language through censorship, and the very idea that society has decided that certain groups of letters are inherently wrong, evil, or just rude regardless of context, and that we are therefore all obligated to be offended by their very use is a major point of confusion for me. They are only words, people. If someone is deliberately using those words to offend you by cursing you out, then feel free to take offense--but not because of the words used, but the deliberate intent to use words (of any kind) to attack you. Otherwise, I fail to see what it is about those words that makes them inherently "worse" than any other word. The quicker we as a society realize all of this, I think the better off we'll be.
so tru dat. it's not the words used but the intention that should count. you can very well offend people by not using any words that could be deemed 'bad' by anyone.. hence, from my observations, false cheat accusations, unfounded lag accusations, calling new and as-of-yet-clueless players geno-baits, flagrunners or tk'ers are spoiling a server's atmosphere much more than foul language (that is not directed at anyone but used to let off steam). typically a 'language!' warning is worse than a 'crap!' or 'dammit!' exclamation any day. as to the reasons of the downfall of the game, overzealous/harsh/unfair admins are one of the biggest culprits imnsho. they have the potential to damage the game to a greater extent than the odd troll, foulmouth n00b or a dedicated tk'er, who i agree are still relatively few in number. having said that, all servers are free to implement a language policy that ranges from very relaxed to very strict. if they fall into the first group, you play there knowing that and still whine about language, YOU are the one causing trouble.. i agree with sigo on one point though: since apocalypse is the dominant map lately, new players tend to think they can talk and behave in any way on any server, which of course is not true. it should be tirelessly stressed by admins that different servers have different rules and the one they are on has a more strict language policy than mofo. i think all warnings, kicks, bans should be followed by that specific warning to prevent misunderstandings, bad surprises and injustice done.

User avatar
Spectre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Spectre » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:50 pm

Sigonasr2 very much is seeing the pattern I'm seeing - as the player base shrinks, the only players left are the old ones, because they are generally the predators that scare off the newbies. In short, the more the player base shrinks, the more it will. BZFlag is becoming survival of the fittest - the most fit have the biggest egos. I especially see this creeping into the leagues, and into the administration of all servers. It seems that the general attitude of contempt toward newer players is leading to a more hostile administration in general. I also think that the leagues are partly creating tension for themselves, not only letting it seep in from MoFo and other such competitive servers.

GM: Originally had a TL;DR for your post, but I see what you're saying - the administration is being too hard on players, which drives them to curse, which leads to harsher punishment. Obviously, in a situation like this, since power cannot move, the more powerful entity will come out on top. This is leading to more frustrated players and more frustrated admins, and therefore tension between the two, when ultimately they are one and the same. In a way, administration is like a dog - after the first serious bite, it's more likely to bite again. This is the pattern I see on many servers: the more punishments an admin gives, the smaller the punishable offenses get.
Keeping Latin alive in 2766 AUC.

User avatar
blast
General
General
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:49 pm
Location: playing.cxx
Contact:

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by blast » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:21 am

Part of the problem is that some servers are run by immature children that just like to ban people because they are beating them. Now, a good number of servers (and most of the popular servers) are run by mature people. But still, there are a lot little kids with a God complex running a server on their daddy's cable modem.
"In addition to knowing the secrets of the Universe, I can assure you that I am also quite potty trained." -Koenma (Yu Yu Hakusho)

Image

User avatar
Spectre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Spectre » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:28 am

I have seen far less of that than I have seen the complete blowing out of proportion of a trivial offense. Often administrators will completely inflate an issue to ban someone they don't like without repercussion from anyone else. I have experienced this twice. The first time, I was banned twenty minutes after a small offense that most people had completely ignored, including (at the time) the administrator who banned me. The second time, the administrator completely invented an instance of me cursing, when in fact, I hadn't said anything even remotely offensive. I managed to avoid a ban that second time but the point stands that there are far more tyrannical masterminds than immature children.
Keeping Latin alive in 2766 AUC.

Green Manalishi
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:54 pm
Location: Badgerking's, Mystic Valley, Overdoze, Eria Ziel, Stalingrad, Clay Hills, Urban Jungle

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Green Manalishi » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:36 am

yes, there are two types, but i agree with anathema that the 'n00b on a power trip' sort of admin is, and has always been less of a problem. for obvious reasons those n00b servers are usually short-lived and from what i see nowadays there are hardly any of them left anyway.

the real problem is with those individuals who have somehow acquired authority on well known, established, respected servers. their 'hurting power' is tremendous. they are not necessarily sociopathic monsters. in fact, apart from their admining practices, many of them are helpful, friendly, even humorous people. that is why they have a lot of friends in the bz community, which facilitates their acquisition of admin status. the problem is, that should never happen, because something or a combination of things too often get in the way of their judgement. it can be personal dislike of some players, envy/anger directed at more skilled players who beat them (they must be cheating after all), it can be intolerance of above average lag (despite still being within the server's acceptable limits), intolerance of even the slightest cussword which never was meant to hurt anyone, inability to realize that new players don't understand some aspects of the game or particular game styles like rabbit hunt, ctf, etc..

when regular players show those reactions it is still a problem but when it is the admins with banning power who are in question, then it is a huge problem. i have observed that some of those people (though very few) virtually ban for fun, often handing out unnecessary, uncalled-for warnings, estimating that would elicit rebellious, angry reactions from players and they have a 'valid' reason to ban them. sometimes there is actually a valid reason to ban someone, but the duration of the ban is ridiculously long. it is also unfortunately very rare that an established admin's decisions come into scrutiny by server owners or fellow admins.

anyway, back to the main topic, i don't really observe a significantly rising level of hostility in the game but if it is the case then i know where to look at first. since the first days of my bz experience i have been convinced that older player/admin doesn't necessarily mean better player.

User avatar
Spectre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Spectre » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:47 pm

I think one thing we'll observe soon is that many of the older players will grow out of the game. A lot of the BZFlag community has been around for 10, 15, and 20 years. A lot of these people will be in their 40's, 50's, and 60's soon, and ultimately will leave the game. A lot of them are administrators because they have a solid foundation in the player base, so I feel that there will soon be a 'noob on a power trip' problem as the power vacuum left by the older group fills.
Keeping Latin alive in 2766 AUC.

User avatar
JeffM
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 5173
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:11 am
Location: https://discord.gg/NN9uAvx
Contact:

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by JeffM » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:42 pm

Anathema wrote:I think one thing we'll observe soon is that many of the older players will grow out of the game. A lot of the BZFlag community has been around for 10, 15, and 20 years. A lot of these people will be in their 40's, 50's, and 60's soon, and ultimately will leave the game. A lot of them are administrators because they have a solid foundation in the player base, so I feel that there will soon be a 'noob on a power trip' problem as the power vacuum left by the older group fills.
I would like to know where you get this information. And also what brand of time machine these 20 year old administrators used to take internet capable versions of bzflag back with them.

User avatar
Spectre
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Spectre » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:58 am

I was under the impression that BZFlag was a fairly long project. I thought it was at least 15 years old. My mistake.
Keeping Latin alive in 2766 AUC.

User avatar
JeffM
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 5173
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:11 am
Location: https://discord.gg/NN9uAvx
Contact:

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by JeffM » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:17 am

The source code is nearly that old, but it was not open source in the beginning and did not run machines other then SGI. Very very few if any of the original users are active these days.

Your average player (by number) and average server owner/admin is someone under 18 who generally only plays free games. The huge amount of servers run off of home connections by kids who like to abuse power is getting silly ( 181 servers for 80 players last week).

The people in the age ranges you specify are actually the ones that stay the longest. The younger crowd is the one that flows in and out like the tide.

Green Manalishi
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:54 pm
Location: Badgerking's, Mystic Valley, Overdoze, Eria Ziel, Stalingrad, Clay Hills, Urban Jungle

Re: General Hostility Levels

Post by Green Manalishi » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:08 pm

aging of the core players is not an alarming issue imo too. many have left for good, but the majority (since i've started bz at least) are more or less still around. i don't see it changing anytime soon, because the main motivation to play this game (for the experienced ones, but i believe generally too) is to hang around, chat, have fun, laugh with familiar people/friends, while relieving some daily stress. certainly not to play a game with uber-cool shiny graphics and state of the art game engine.. also some of those kids who do stay in the game will transform into decent/useful/great members of the community. many good players, mapmakers, server owners, admins of the present have been newbs (if not n00bs) in the past. hence the old aztec proverb: today's n00b warrior is tomorrow's jaguar king.

on another note, i'm a bit more optimistic about the future of the game compared to a few months ago, because something important happened: 2.0.16 has officially died and the moogle/urban combat people have been forced out of there to populate a wider range of ffa maps on 2.4, among them classics like spiralzone, mystic valley, badgerking's or passion of the ffa. tis like teh kewln3ss.. 8)

Post Reply