"Del" - New Tactic or New Cheat?

Questions and comments on tactics and playstyles
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"Del" - New Tactic or New Cheat?

Post by Grace F » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:54 am

For those of you who don't know, the del button can be used to start a 5 second timer on your tank. After those 5 seconds your tank will explode and you can start over with a new spawn.


Now, onto business :)
I'm sure a few of you have been in a situation where you are about to kill someone and they log off. Lets say they've jumped at you, their turning in the air and are about to fall rightly in the line of your bullet, then in the blink of an eye, their gone. You search the Chat Box and notice they pressed esc and logged off before you could say "wtf?".



However, my concern isn't with logging off, it's that little del key.

I've come across players on MissleWars who will jump at a player with Geno, shoot their bullets and before the geno holder can react, the other player has self destructed.

I had a long arguement with a player who saw other players, and a cop/admin, perform this trick and so he thought it was okey. He also argued that it was okey because you were still connected to the server. He later expressed a strong dislike towards "F12ers".

However, I see it as being exactly the same as logging out before getting killed. The outcome is still the same, you get out unharmed. Whether you're still connected to the server or not.



I'd like to hear you opinions on this.
New tactic? Or new cheat?



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Re: "Del" - New Tactic or New Cheat?

Post by z[h]ero » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:12 pm

Hmm, I guess this will be a really controversy discussion.

From point of moral, I personally would disallow the del-usage. (If the client will be extended one day, in order to show a visual countdown on tanks which activated self-destruct, then I wouldn't have a problem with that).
I'm sure that coding a default self-destruct-time of 10 or 15 seconds (edit: without a possibility to deactivate an initaited self-destruct) should help much to avoid people using the del-key (coding that could be fastly done). However I could imagine that some players would be displeased with a longer time-setting, and maybe a longer time-setting isn't too noob-friendly.

However from point of true ctf-play which would be a true teamplay, I see nothing against it. Basically this tactic would be kinda an unselfish sacrifice for the team! (Remember, the "martyr" will lose 1 point of his own stat, for the sake of his team)
Grace F wrote:However, I see it as being exactly the same as logging out before getting killed. The outcome is still the same, you get out unharmed. Whether you're still connected to the server or not.
Generally it's not the same, as the self-destruct-player will loose 1 point afterwards his self-destruct is performed, so in contrast to a F12-user the self-destruct-player always gets harmed.
(But I understand your intension, it's kinda the same "dastardly" tactic)

If the del-issue gets too intense I suggest to report this issue to the according map, or talking about it with the server-owner. (As the server owner would have the last word). If you are lucky, then the server-owner will announce an anti-del rule.
Last edited by z[h]ero on Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tank 52 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:55 pm

Isn't delete in the game for a reason,it's for tactics,if your mad because they did that well..im sorry :P but to be honest isn't it in the configuration,or was meant to BE in all servers and leagues in bzflag? It's used in gu but not for the same purposes,and no it's not the same as f12 since you lose 1 point for it,and sometimes you press delete to long,and your shot before the 5 seconds are up,as in once you hit that button and there's someone with geno,you have to be perfect with timing,to early,you'll either die before you hit them or hit delete to avoid dying,shoot miss hit it again and die from the person with geno,same if you hit it to late so timing is key for it,ive used it before to annoy people in gu from losing their kill, like grace ;) a while ago though so yeah ..anyway those are my thoughts ...
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Post by z[h]ero » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:17 pm

Tank 52 wrote:Isn't delete in the game for a reason,it's for tactics
Well, the basic idea for this key was JUST to self-destruct yourself, in the case that you get stuck somehow. Otherwise every tank that gets stuck would need to rejoin the game and looses all his points.
However during matches I sometimes "abused" this key when no enemy-tank was near me (so noone got annoyed), in order to give my team a better strategical tank-constellation.
Tank 52 wrote:but to be honest isn't it in the configuration,or was meant to BE in all servers and leagues in bzflag?
Sorry, I don't understand your intension. (What is meant to be in all servers? The del-key? Which anyway can be activated on any server)
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Post by Quantum Tank » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:51 pm

My opinion:

I think that, in general, it is bad sportsmanship (like rejoining when you get a low score or switching teams all the time), but nothing bannable. I think you should just accept one death, its not like your game is permanently over. Besides, you lose a point anyways, you're just not giving one to the other person. Anyone mean enough to go THAT far just shouldn't be playing this game. SDing against a genoer is a slightly different matter. It would probably be fairest to admit your mistake and take responsibility for your team's death, but in reality no one really wants to do that (I can't say I've never killed myself right before getting hit with a geno, although not with del). So basically: SDing against a non-genoer is just stupid and mean, and SDing against a genoer isn't the fairest thing to do, but you shouldn't be overly criticized if you do.

Hope that helps.

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Post by khazhyk » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:04 pm

First off, everyone can do it, so it doesn't give the player that does that an unfair advantage.

I wouldn't see it as bad sportsmanship. So what, the person pressed delete so you wouldn't hit him with geno, it's called tactics. Get over it. It's perfectly fair. Make the guy with geno get points the real way.

If you log out right before being killed, the only reason you would do that is to be a jerk, so that is not cool. However, if someone self destructs because they planned it, it is not the same thing. They thought of a way to defeat geno, and by banning the person who did this, or even criticizing him or her, you are criticizing creativity, which seems to be disliked in many online multiplayer games.

You wouldn't criticize someone for being better or worse than you, why would you criticize them for using a different tactic or style? There is no "right" way to play, and there is no "wrong" way to play, the exception being cheating.
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Post by F687/s » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:41 pm

Honestly?

Self-destruct is self-destruct, and whoever wants to use it can use it the way he wants. Whether to fix stuck tanks, or blow himself out of the air as a defense tactic and to take away points from t3h rightful winnar. I may not like what you do, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.

On a more philosophical grounds:

*shudder* I think I'm gonna have to agree with z[h]ero here. Personally, it might be cheap, it might be annoying to some, but I believe it's a perfectly valid tactic. You could always suck it up and be a good sport and wait to get shot, but that's no fun. If you really wanted to get pedantic about it, you could also consider shooting yourself after jumping into a wall as "bad sportsmanship." And it just might be.

But on the other hand, like me1 said, you almost always have to plan your explosions. Self destruct takes 5 seconds, and jumping takes 4, which means you can't just trigger it in mid-air. Of course, you could always rejoin, but then you lose your score, and all previous states (like what team you're on).

Meh, let your moral compass be your guide. Just listen to your heart. That's what I do... ;-)

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Post by macsforme » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:52 pm

F687/s wrote:Honestly?

Self-destruct is self-destruct, and whoever wants to use it can use it the way he wants. Whether to fix stuck tanks, or blow himself out of the air as a defense tactic and to take away points from t3h rightful winnar. I may not like what you do, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.

On a more philosophical grounds:

*shudder* I think I'm gonna have to agree with z[h]ero here. Personally, it might be cheap, it might be annoying to some, but I believe it's a perfectly valid tactic. You could always suck it up and be a good sport and wait to get shot, but that's no fun. If you really wanted to get pedantic about it, you could also consider shooting yourself after jumping into a wall as "bad sportsmanship." And it just might be.

But on the other hand, like me1 said, you almost always have to plan your explosions. Self destruct takes 5 seconds, and jumping takes 4, which means you can't just trigger it in mid-air. Of course, you could always rejoin, but then you lose your score, and all previous states (like what team you're on).

Meh, let your moral compass be your guide. Just listen to your heart. That's what I do... ;-)
+1

It's a feature that's available in-game, and something that requires set-up (and a bit of skill) to pull off (unlike F12). If server owners want to outlaw it, so be it... but until that happens I consider it fair game.

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Post by deathrider » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:02 pm

Constitution wrote:
F687/s wrote:Honestly?

Self-destruct is self-destruct, and whoever wants to use it can use it the way he wants. Whether to fix stuck tanks, or blow himself out of the air as a defense tactic and to take away points from t3h rightful winnar. I may not like what you do, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.

On a more philosophical grounds:

*shudder* I think I'm gonna have to agree with z[h]ero here. Personally, it might be cheap, it might be annoying to some, but I believe it's a perfectly valid tactic. You could always suck it up and be a good sport and wait to get shot, but that's no fun. If you really wanted to get pedantic about it, you could also consider shooting yourself after jumping into a wall as "bad sportsmanship." And it just might be.

But on the other hand, like me1 said, you almost always have to plan your explosions. Self destruct takes 5 seconds, and jumping takes 4, which means you can't just trigger it in mid-air. Of course, you could always rejoin, but then you lose your score, and all previous states (like what team you're on).

Meh, let your moral compass be your guide. Just listen to your heart. That's what I do... ;-)
+1

It's a feature that's available in-game, and something that requires set-up (and a bit of skill) to pull off (unlike F12). If server owners want to outlaw it, so be it... but until that happens I consider it fair game.
+1
since in a battle game you perform based on what is available and not what is morally right.

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Post by lol_u died » Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:27 pm

Honestly I think it's neither tactic or cheat. It's just an action. Deleting and self-destructing is your loss. You lose a point and you might also lose your progress. So maybe we can say there's pros and cons? Let me know if I'm wrong. But if this is considered a cheat then I guess we have a new word other than F5er or Cheater, the new word is Deleter! :twisted: :lol-old:

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Post by Wreckage » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:36 am

Briefly, I agree there's nothing wrong with it. I have done it myself several times when the situation was right, but only to get rid of geno w/o getting everyone killed if i mess up.
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Post by Bazooka Buster » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:14 am

Well, I'm not completely sure wether it's tactic or cheat, but to help counter attack, a tank that is about to self destruct should possibly blink or another special effect. Though usually, you can get rid of geno with a good GM or other flag, so it's not too much of a cheat. And if you have good timing they get hit. At least they die. :roll:

Self Destruct can also be used to not let an enemy gain a kill on you, to get back to your base in a hurry, or to respawn if you're stuck. So it obviously can't be removed.
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Post by Amoeba » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:38 pm

Self destruction is necessary in the game (especially for us Linux folk who get stuck on certain meshes and teleporters), and it really takes a good player to pull of the "Self Destructor Martyr Dude/Chick" tactic. It's not a problem unless it gets abused. I respect the non-abusers who use it in appropriate situations, especially if they save their entire team. So my opinion is that it's a tactic.

And how is it a "new" tactic or cheat anyway? I find it difficult to believe it hasn't been around a very long time.

In the time I've been playing, I'm not certain I've yet seen someone even USE the "Self Destructor Martyr Dude/Chick" tactic, so how can it be a problem comparable to F5-ing?

On the ironic side, this topic is bringing the "Self Destructor Martyr Dude/Chick" tactic into the spotlight, and I will not be surprised to see someone use it in the near future.

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Post by Grace F » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:19 am

Amoeba! wrote:And how is it a "new" tactic or cheat anyway? I find it difficult to believe it hasn't been around a very long time.
It probably has. This is only the first I've heard of it.
Amoeba! wrote: In the time I've been playing, I'm not certain I've yet seen someone even USE the "Self Destructor Martyr Dude/Chick" tactic, so how can it be a problem comparable to F5-ing?
No-one is comparing it to the F5 key...
Amoeba! wrote: On the ironic side, this topic is bringing the "Self Destructor Martyr Dude/Chick" tactic into the spotlight, and I will not be surprised to see someone use it in the near future.
There is no rule against it so that wouldn't be a problem, just an annoyance.

It's like trying to hit someone with jitter, visible one second gone the next. :P
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Post by llrr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:19 am

Hmm interesting...I personally haven't seen the tactic been used yet, but i'm sure some people use it. At present i don't think it is a problem, as mainly people would use it to stop their team from getting killed from geno. I can imagine how annoying it would be though if someone uses it, it's like logging off except this requires a bit more skill. But seriously anyone who uses the tactic...think again, if they can geno camp, then you can kill them without exposing yourself to the geno, e.g. missile wars sb flag is great for geno campers in the mid pyramids. So really i don't know why people bother, trying to be smart and cool perhaps? using del is definitely not a cheat, but it really isn't a very good tactic either.

Newbies and noobies - stay away from geno
Experts - always find a way to kill them
Against non genoers - just a very stupid tactic i think

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Post by Tank 52 » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:30 am

z[h]ero wrote:
Tank 52 wrote:Isn't delete in the game for a reason,it's for tactics
Well, the basic idea for this key was JUST to self-destruct yourself, in the case that you get stuck somehow. Otherwise every tank that gets stuck would need to rejoin the game and looses all his points.
However during matches I sometimes "abused" this key when no enemy-tank was near me (so noone got annoyed), in order to give my team a better strategical tank-constellation.
Tank 52 wrote:but to be honest isn't it in the configuration,or was meant to BE in all servers and leagues in bzflag?
Sorry, I don't understand your intension. (What is meant to be in all servers? The del-key? Which anyway can be activated on any server)
Yes,it is in the game in case you get stuck,buy what i meant is people use it for tactical reasons as well not cheating reasons,hence tactic or cheat i picked tactic,And my intention was the Del key and in any server thanks
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Post by robert bruce » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:29 am

i think they should just get rid of geno in all CTF maps cuz its just there so the person using it can get points

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Post by Zac » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:29 am

geno is there for that simple reason that a skilled palyer can use it effectively, however it is usually hard to obtain without dying and has a limited number of shots, it is good for a skilled player to kill someone with geno anyway because if they are all over the map and it gets them back in to a general area. but that is beside the point, the topic is the self destruct key.
and i dont have a problem with it because it was obviously put there for a reason. as a tactivc it is difficult to pull off, but if example you get stuck in a wall because a thief steals your OO or a glitch then it is handy to use it to get out without giving someone else a kill

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Post by ducatiwannabe » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:36 pm

deathrider wrote:+1
since in a battle game you perform based on what is available and not what is morally right.
Ehhhh.... I wouldn't say that.... by that logic, cheating is available and "okay." Nah. ;)

As annoying as it is, I'd say this Del key is tactical. F12ing one's way out of a situation, however, is very lame.

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Post by blast » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:11 pm

robert bruce wrote:i think they should just get rid of geno in all CTF maps cuz its just there so the person using it can get points
This thread is about the delete key (self destruct), not genocide.
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Post by Engineer » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:20 pm

Well, It isn't wrong, because the button is there for you free to push. All you can do is kill him before his 5 sec o' life is gone. See what the wiki say to these suicides:
Please don't do this!

It is generally frowned upon - if your enemy has you cornered, and your destruction is the only possible result in this situation, then of course he deserves the point. So please, either fight your way out, or die with honor!
So, (heheh) for your honor, stop pressing del!

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Post by RexFlex » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:29 pm

I don't see self destruct disfavourably in any fashion.

In my view, the most imprtant argument against having any bad feelings about people using SD is its 5 second delay. If it is taking you 5 seconds to hit them from the point when they determine you have them inexorably trapped, then it was your own action (or inaction) that resulted in a lost opportunity. Learn from that lost oportunity and move on.
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Re: "Del" - New Tactic or New Cheat?

Post by Enigma » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:55 pm

Grace F wrote: I had a long arguement with a player who saw other players, and a cop/admin, perform this trick and so he thought it was okey. He also argued that it was okey because you were still connected to the server. He later expressed a strong dislike towards "F12ers".
Heh, I think I may be the admin you are talking about. If not, then you are probably referring to Mari. We seem to use that tactic more than the other players. For the record, Mari got the idea from me :).

There is slightly more detail to the tactic though. I press delete and wait until there are two seconds left before jumping to shoot at the genocide holder. This gives me just enough time to shoot at him or her without getting shot. Often, the player with genocide will remain in place, expecting the other team to blow up. Instead, we both die.

As others have said, this tactic is not cheating. When you sign off to avoid getting shot by genocide, you are signing off because you made a mistake. This is unfair. In contrast, using self-destruct to avoid getting shot is not unfair; it is a planned tactic. You are not trying to "bail out" of the situation. Additionally, the "sign off" game feature is not meant to be used for these purposes. Thus, it is being abused, while the self-destruct feature is not being abused; its purpose is to blow your tank up, and that is what it is being used for.

Personally, I like this tactic. Mari has done it to me a few times. Sometimes I can recognize Mari by driving style, and I simply avoid shooting at him or her.

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Post by Zac » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:22 am

i have recently tried the del button tactic and it is a whole lot harder than it seems. most players usually jump when the other jumps anyway so they avoid dying. it doesnt really matter if you miss when your on te top of the geno spawn block any way because you can just use your shots and pick it up again.

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