A thought on "unfair" capping

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I_Died_Once
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A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by I_Died_Once » Sat May 02, 2009 9:14 pm

OK, I'm not a noobie by any means. Not after being owner of one of the game's top servers anyway. Although my character has been called into question on more than one occasion, pointed out what a horrible person I am... all that aside...

I'm on, playing under the various names I use, and so often you have people that cry because of supposed "unfair" capping. People tell you "it's 7 - 3!" and this all of a sudden makes it acceptable to kill your team mate. And its the most horrible act one can perform - capping with uneven teams.

But what makes a team even? When its 2 on 2, one team having two experts and the other team with two new guys... but its fair due to sheer numbers? What about when it *is* seven vs three, the three being the games top three players and the other seven suck beyond all recognition - the seven are still at an ugly disadvantage.

I watched the movie "300" the other day and it dawns on me... if people stopped counting how many people are on which team and actually put forth an effort into actually PLAYING THE GAME, the maybe... Juuuuuust maybe... "their numbers count for nothing!"
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by Wreckage » Sat May 02, 2009 9:33 pm

Hmm.

Honestly I find it a bit annoying that some CTF servers don't even have a policy on this, or a plugin. I highly appreciate The Two Castles for this. I think servers should make CTF rules so it's not left up to any player. Because half the time their judgment is good, half not. Actually in my experience most people are very good about dropping the flag when it's uneven, and reminding those who don't. Even if the 7v3-good players is evenly matched, it's not like the server can tell. I say fairness should be determined by number of players per team like it is, anything else doesn't make much sense to me.

As for the last point, although you make it sound so noble, how would you like to be capped on 5v1? What kind of competition is that? No one wants to play their GU match 3v1, because fairness matters. You can try your hardest, etc., but it just doesn't make sense why some players can't switch to the other team (for example).

No offense meant at all, just my opinion.
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by Bambino » Sat May 02, 2009 10:52 pm

On Missile War 2.3 it is fairly good on the fair to unfair capping. Some players have different beliefs on what is a fair or unfair cap. I have played with some players who think when it's 15-13 when they pass, get the flag into the base and suddenly it's 15-9. Some players will cap because it was fair when the flag was passed and others will wait till the teams even up to a fair number. I personally think that when you are about to cap that the teams should be reasonably fair in number not on skill or how stacked the teams are.
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by khazhyk » Sun May 03, 2009 3:55 am

Just throwing this out here: FairCTF makes the game less fun. Period. I am sad that Two Castles has implemented it, honestly.

It's not that it does a bad job, or that it's a bad plug-in. It does what it's supposed to do- disable CTF when teams are different. Unfortunately, often this plug-in is set up wrong, so if there is a one person difference, no one can CTF. Also, too often is CTF suddenly disabled right as someone gets to their base/side, and you have to wait until someone joins to continue.

If it is 7 on 3, or 5 on 1, or 3 on 1, and the bigger team caps, guess what? Two things could happen: the bigger team switches sides, or the smaller team leaves. This is with and without fairctf on. With fairctf on, a third option arises: players stagnate and FFA until someone joins or leaves.

Usually, if someone is saying "unfair teams," the cap'er will drop the flag, if his/her teammates don't make him/her first.


Now, on the topic of (un)even teams, yes, 7 noobies vs 3 pros would have the noobies at a disadvantage, but more often then not, the noob-to-pro ratio is equal, more or less. At 7 to 3, or even 7 to 5, just the number difference will give the bigger team the advantage most of the time.

Basing ctf fairness on number is usually a good system. Of course, there are still cases like a team of pros vs a team of noobs, but that doesn't happen too often. and if the smaller team is still capping the big team, the big team obviously doesn't have an advantage. ;)


Based on my experiences in the game, I have no doubts that many of you disagree. :)
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by I_Died_Once » Sun May 03, 2009 6:13 pm

me1 wrote:Just throwing this out here: FairCTF makes the game less fun. Period. I am sad that Two Castles has implemented it, honestly.

It's not that it does a bad job, or that it's a bad plug-in. It does what it's supposed to do- disable CTF when teams are different. Unfortunately, often this plug-in is set up wrong, so if there is a one person difference, no one can CTF. Also, too often is CTF suddenly disabled right as someone gets to their base/side, and you have to wait until someone joins to continue.

If it is 7 on 3, or 5 on 1, or 3 on 1, and the bigger team caps, guess what? Two things could happen: the bigger team switches sides, or the smaller team leaves. This is with and without fairctf on. With fairctf on, a third option arises: players stagnate and FFA until someone joins or leaves.

Usually, if someone is saying "unfair teams," the cap'er will drop the flag, if his/her teammates don't make him/her first.


Now, on the topic of (un)even teams, yes, 7 noobies vs 3 pros would have the noobies at a disadvantage, but more often then not, the noob-to-pro ratio is equal, more or less. At 7 to 3, or even 7 to 5, just the number difference will give the bigger team the advantage most of the time.

Basing ctf fairness on number is usually a good system. Of course, there are still cases like a team of pros vs a team of noobs, but that doesn't happen too often. and if the smaller team is still capping the big team, the big team obviously doesn't have an advantage. ;)


Based on my experiences in the game, I have no doubts that many of you disagree. :)
Here, Here! I'm so with you. I can't express in written words how frustrated I get on the Two Castles when you fight hell and high water to get from pillar to post to get to the flag, carry that thing across, get 7/8 to the base and have to drop it because the server is poorly setup. Irks me all kinds of ways.

Or when you brave the entire other team, run the gauntlet, and leave a trail of death and tank parts in your wake... get all the way to the flag in question to not be able to pick it up 'cause someone joins and throws off the balance. And if you're not actively counting players, or if the flag is in a tight spot and you sit on it, an admin will want to kick and ban you for trying for the flag. Never mind the hell you just encountered to get to where you are.

I know the plugin is MEANS well, but poorly administered and shoddy setup servers should be banned from the list server, IMHO.
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by Wreckage » Sun May 03, 2009 9:58 pm

Good points, and here are my thoughts again :D :
Unfortunately, often this plug-in is set up wrong, so if there is a one person difference, no one can CTF.
I don't remember exactly what the policy at least used to be at two castles, but I think it only disables CTF for that minute of a difference if the team numbers are below 5v5. I don't recall what happens above that to determine when to disable CTF, if anything. Hard call to make...
If it is 7 on 3, or 5 on 1, or 3 on 1, and the bigger team caps, guess what? Two things could happen: the bigger team switches sides, or the smaller team leaves. This is with and without fairctf on. With fairctf on, a third option arises: players stagnate and FFA until someone joins or leaves.
That option is an option with or without FairCTF. Perhaps one might see it more with FairCTF? It really depends on whose playing. If you have some nice GU players practicing, they will often switch teams usually to make it fair. But if new/lazy/point-greedy people are on they are not going to want to switch or don't know they should.
Also, too often is CTF suddenly disabled right as someone gets to their base/side, and you have to wait until someone joins to continue.
I can't express in written words how frustrated I get on the Two Castles when you fight hell and high water to get from pillar to post to get to the flag, carry that thing across, get 7/8 to the base and have to drop it because the server is poorly setup. Irks me all kinds of ways.
Yeah, I have to agree with the frustration of having to drop the flag when you're so close. Would it be possible to have it so that if one already has the opposing team's flag when the teams became uneven, it is not dropped (but once you drop it/are killed, you can't pick it up)? That makes sense to me (at least right now). That would get rid of the problem discussed, like a player leaving right before their flag is capped so that it is dropped. And the teams would have had to have been even recently or else you wouldn't have the flag still. Thoughts on that would be welcome. :)
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by applecake » Mon May 04, 2009 9:17 am

Bambino wrote:On Missile War 2.3 it is fairly good on the fair to unfair capping. Some players have different beliefs on what is a fair or unfair cap. I have played with some players who think when it's 15-13 when they pass, get the flag into the base and suddenly it's 15-9. Some players will cap because it was fair when the flag was passed and others will wait till the teams even up to a fair number. I personally think that when you are about to cap that the teams should be reasonably fair in number not on skill or how stacked the teams are.
I think that if you pass flag and get it to base at MW2, while teams are like 15-14 or something like that, and then, as your just about to cap, half the other team leaves (for example), its still right to cap, as you got the flag in base while it was fair. There are not very big chances of getting the flag back when it is in a base, the only thing is like laser snipers on top, and maybe a ST going.
I generally think teams are unfair, if one whole team is +points and the other -points.
One thing that can happen sometimes at MW is that one team is "the geno team" and the other is "the genobait team", and "the geno team" has much easier to get flag. Usually, people also spawnkill and go ST jump, so there's small chances of getting flag down. Often when this happen and im on the bait team, I sorta "give up" a little.
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by llrr » Sun May 10, 2009 6:31 am

it is perfectly right that even or uneven teams should not be defined by numbers, but since nobody knows whether experts or noobies are on, one can only assume that same numbers mean it's even, or it's going to be as even as it gets with all the different strangers playing. this is just a problem in all online games and there is nothing that can be done about it. the best assumption is: same numbers = even teams.

now to the server implemented fair ctf problem. i personally don't like it much, because of problems such as reaching the flag then can't pick it up, or the flag auto drops after nearly reaching your own base. it is very frustrating, and some people exploit it just for the sake of ruining the fun for everyone else. the server owners however can only do this much to make sure an "even" game can be maintained at all times. i think that if most people in the community respect the game and respect others more, then we wouldn't need the fair ctf plugin to make the game fair, people would be willing to change teams to make it fair.

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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by Spazzy McGee » Sun May 10, 2009 9:11 am

A word on the point about better players being uneven against noobs -

It is entirely feasible to create a plugin that tracks people's scores and play stats over a long period of time, and 'learns' how good people are, then weighting the decision to whether or not the teams are balanced. In fact you could even suggest a suitable set up of teams via the chat box. Yes, I know there is the main stats database, but that was compromised years ago by people gaming the system - if you did it all locally, on a well maintained server, the stats would be valid.
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by VforVentriloquist » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:01 pm

Personally I find servers with enforced 'even teams' cap rules really frustrating. I'm not advocating that you should cap when teams are 6-2 or similar (which is pretty pathetic really) but I've seen plenty of players simply logging out and then back in to prevent capping. People will always find a way to exploit the system - I think it's better if the choice is left up to the players.
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Re: A thought on "unfair" capping

Post by Zac » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:42 am

it really comes down to what map your playing on. Pillbox is one such map where you really do need to have a Ctf plugin. borrego.hepcat had a good plugin that allowed a disblalnce of up to 2 players before it stopped Ctf play. however if the map is big and there are campers stealthers and laggers everywhere and you have managed to obtain the flag. then i see no reason why a silly plugin should be allowed to take the flag away

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