Shot limits make BZFlag less fun

Questions and comments on tactics and playstyles
Xtra
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Shot limits make BZFlag less fun

Post by Xtra » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:29 pm

I see more and more hosted maps which have shot limits for GM, L and even SB. I think this makes BZFlag a whole lot less fun. It's great to be able to camp somewhere and kill people with impunity. It also makes other people want to kill you even more and they'll try everything to kill you off.

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Post by brad2901 » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:24 pm

If you want a server with no shot limits then just set up your own server and perhaps invite some of ya friends along..

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Post by Workaphobia » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:19 pm

What about when one team has three or four good flags, and their holders have good camping positions on the other team's base? Then it's not a matter of whether or not the opposition wants it badly enough, it's a matter of whether or not those who have the power flags screw up.

I think it depends on how well-balanced the map is. If there are enough ways to attack a camping position, then flag limits should be relatively high. Otherwise, they're needed to prevent total dominance by one player.
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Post by RPG » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:57 pm

Yes, Workaphobia, a flag shouldn't have a shot limit if it's counter flag doesn't have a shot limit and it's counter can somehow easily defeat the main flag. On secretplace, my fav, there are no shot limits. Also, on my soon-to-be server there will be no shot limits. I stay away from shot-limited servers.

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Re: Shot limits make BZFlag less fun

Post by Bozo » Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:17 am

Xtra wrote:I see more and more hosted maps which have shot limits for GM, L and even SB. I think this makes BZFlag a whole lot less fun. It's great to be able to camp somewhere and kill people with impunity. It also makes other people want to kill you even more and they'll try everything to kill you off.
Depends on your point of view. I've seen times when the map just becomes less populated until there's just the camper and maybe his buddy because it wasn't fun anymore for anybody else. Either there was just no way to get him or the overall skill level wasn't high enough. And the game ceased being fun.

If you don't like the shot limits, find a server that doesn't have them. And don't complain if you're lonely.
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no

Post by a cow » Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:45 am

i think no, cuz if you're on a losing team and you are up against a lot of big scary guys who have Gs, GMs, Ls, SWs, and other superweapons...you're as good as dead. That happened to me the other day on Viper's site, too. The only thing was, they had shot limits.
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Post by RPG » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:58 am

Yes, on some servers it gets unfair, but right when I see the "10 SHOTS LEFT" I panic and leave the server before I get shot-limititis.

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Post by QuantumBeep » Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:11 am

Well, some people have different preferences. Generally, the flag limits are tweaked to the map design. If it's designed as a camper's playground (pieinthesky), there will often be limits on GM and L.

On maps where everyone is out in the open (Secretplace), all players are vulnerable and shot limits are unnecessary. No server owner is going to want a single player to dominate the map for hours with one Geno or GM or Laser... everyone else tends to sign off and wait for the camper to get bored.

I recall when PieInTheSky was in rabbit mode. A single player grabbed a geno and sat on top of a tower under a teleport and fried everyone else for an hour and a half. That server was taken down the next day.

In short, maps are tweaked so that a player's score reflects his skill, not his luck. And since most ops want their server to be popular, and camping makes everybody mad, camping tactics are limited by design.

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Post by M1A2AbramsTank » Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:30 pm

i really don't care whether someone kills me a billion times with a really good weapon, if i want it then i shoud either find another or kill the guy. shot limits may eliminate campers, but in some maps camping is the only way to make your score go up. truthfully when i see a server with shot limits, i leave, i don't want to lose the weapon i may be best with because people complain about it, i want to have a high score!

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Post by QuantumBeep » Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:55 pm

The game is not designed to give you the high score. It's designed so everybody, including newbies, can have fun and get some kills. If I get zapped with the same laser seven times in a row, I promise you I'll be finding another server... and I'm no newbie.

The point of opening a server is to attract a crowd and let people have some fun. Anything that makes people leave is countereffective.

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Post by toaster » Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:47 pm

Brad2901 wrote:If you want a server with no shot limits then just set up your own server and perhaps invite some of ya friends along..
If you're a dyed-in-the-wool camper who always likes to make everyone else mad by send insulting, sexually explicit, or other inappropriate messages, odds are you don't have any friends.
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Post by SGI » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:50 am

I see more and more hosted maps which have shot limits for GM, L and even SB. I think this makes BZFlag a whole lot less fun. It's great to be able to camp somewhere and kill people with impunity. It also makes other people want to kill you even more and they'll try everything to kill you off.
Why you dont to play against me..........and I have GM or SB.
Try once :twisted:
Shot limits its a good reason to exist.

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Post by Red Baron2 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:52 pm

i don't like shotlimits either. on some maps, its reasonable to limit geno, i.e. hepcat, and viper where you have 10-15 on each team. but on the other servers, limits are unnecessary. and if you ask me, for people who aren't good enough to knock out a camper :wink: but really, thats the sissy way, because its the easy way, and you don't get any skill on how to knock out a camper if his shot limit runs out..
FerrarisRule wrote:..in some maps camping is the only way to make your score go up..
no offense but, sorry, there are other ways to get points. if you have real skill, a normal highspeed flag can go a long way, along with tiny ect. you don't have to necessarily camp to get a good score. trust me, i've been there, done that :)
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Post by Logwad » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:59 pm

The question I have is why people think it's fun to camp. Personally I find it boring and cheap.

However, I do enjoy having the odds stacked against me, as long as I have to possiblity of taking out the camper. But I don't like seeing my team continuosly slautered, simply because I'm the only one good who chooses to be on that team, while many good players move to the other team, get camper flags sit there and fire away, with no danger to themselves.
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Post by Pizbit » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:33 am

I find on some maps shot limits can make the game more challenging and less about luck. If you only have 2 or 3 shots you tend to be more careful because if you miss all of your shots they have a chance to shoot and kill you without being shot back at.

However if one has 15 or unlimited shots they mostly just firing continiously towards another player because one of them is *bound* to hit... Right?:D

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Shot limits are good

Post by So an So » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:06 pm

I think that shot limits are very good! You have to have skill to get a good score if you can't camp. I LOVE hepcat overlord because it has shot limits. If it didn't it would be almost impossible to kill a camper.

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Re: Shot limits are good

Post by sid6.7 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:45 am

So an So wrote:I think that shot limits are very good! You have to have skill to get a good score if you can't camp. I LOVE hepcat overlord because it has shot limits. If it didn't it would be almost impossible to kill a camper.
quite a few maps turned out to be camping heavens
sometimes this does not become apparent till a few days
or weeks of real play time happens, sometimes it takes
a few players trying different things then they discover
thier "spot".....alot of server owners tunr the server on
then leave it for days or weeks without checking in.....

then only clear way to handle this is the shot limits
which most dont like...
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Shot Limits

Post by Nacogdoches Texas » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:27 am

I wouldn't play on a server with shot limits either. Campers have gotten me countless times, and I've F12'd out of disgust plenty. BUT, I always go back to my favorite server, secretplace, because it is the most balanced map I have seen. With a stable 2.0 released, and the addition of the wings flag, it's the best overall bzfunhouse out there. No shot limits, campers all eventually get KO'd by a ST flag or a lucky shot from someone. The trick is to not give up, keep practicing, and eventually you WILL get good enough to match up with any player out there. BUT YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE! And DIE a lot! hehe

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Post by Red Baron2 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:29 pm

true, shotlimits are needed on large scale 1 team vs another ctf. other wise it is too easy for one team to get the upper hand, and totally smash the other. however on ffa, shotlimits are not needed
Pizbit wrote: However if one has 15 or unlimited shots they mostly just firing continiously towards another player because one of them is *bound* to hit... Right?:D
not necessarily, look at some of the ducati players, they can dodge some insane shots. i'm a regular ducati player, and when i play on ffa, i've had times when other players have called me a cheater cause i dodged 4 people all shooting 10 shots.
"Those who say they have never been afraid are either lying, or their life has never amounted to much. Fear is nothing to be ashamed of. Often it makes man a better fighter, it inhances his senses, it gives him caution, and other qualities he will need. So when i am about, be wise....and fear."

-Wolf Tarlon-

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Post by thedougler » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:48 am

i think it most definetly depends on the map, secretplace is (as previously stated) one of the most well balanced maps I have ever been on, but in some maps caming ruins a game, and honestly, if camping gives you any sort of rush... knitting would probably do the same, but that makes people less angry. If you find yourself being pwned all the time till the lucky laser or gm comes around, you need to learn more about how to play the game, in my personal opinion, ducati style BZFlag is one of the only places to actually prove yourself, it takes hella-skill to own ducati or hepcat on any given day, not so much to own a sparsley populated, no limits frag-fest

but thats just me :|

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Post by the enemy » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:40 am

I think shot limits make sense on a map where it's easy to camp (and there's a few which are explicitly designed for it). It just depends on the map.

That said, some shot limits are ridiculously low. I pretty much don't bother with things like ST flags with a 5 shot limit.

Ultimately a camper will run out with whatever limit you set, so setting it at 100 should be fine. Geno's about the only special case.

But I agree with others that the best thing to do with campers is know the best ways to kill them. I deliberately seek out campers on the kaffeecontrol.de map which is designed for camping, and so I also camp myself, and hope that someone good enough will come along and deal with me :).

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Post by QuantumBeep » Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:00 pm

The only aspect of camping that I really find annoying on a good server is when a player decides to do nothing but camp... I knock out some sucker with an sb in a building, and he immediately respawns, goes flag shopping, and goes back to camping in the same spot. That's not playing... that's just point farming.

The only place where you can camp all you want without being annoying is in rabbit mode, to the best of my knowledge.

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Post by The Purple Panzer » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:52 pm

I think the best part of camping, one that can take some skill, is reading a map while playing to figure out where interesting defensive positions might be (people who just copy what they see aren't using too much skill).

Of course the strong flags are best used from a position of advantage, and I also like the challenge of killing campers, even if it costs me points over several tries to do it. It can also foster ad hoc cooperation between other players (e.g. "don't shoot the guy with the ST going after the GM"), which is a neat part of the game.

While I don't like shot limits, I can certainly see their value in some situations - I just wish they were high enough to still make seeking and occupying a good defensive position worthwhile. Finally getting a GM, and heading towards a position of advantage, then finding that the flag has a 5 or 10 shot limit, is pretty discouraging, and therefore the flag becomes hardly worthwhile. Limits of 40, 50, etc. are to me OK, because I'm almost always killed before I reach that limit, and these would help against tedious abuse.

In summary, I think low shot limits take something away from the game, while high shot limits are probably a good idea to limit excessive camping.
Where to set the limit is of course a matter of admin preference, but I bet there's a vast middle ground where most everyone would be happy.

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Post by IF I KILL U U R UGLY » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:54 pm

Red Baron2 wrote:i don't like shotlimits either. on some maps, its reasonable to limit geno, i.e. hepcat, and viper where you have 10-15 on each team. but on the other servers, limits are unnecessary. and if you ask me, for people who aren't good enough to knock out a camper :wink: but really, thats the sissy way, because its the easy way, and you don't get any skill on how to knock out a camper if his shot limit runs out..
FerrarisRule wrote:..in some maps camping is the only way to make your score go up..
no offense but, sorry, there are other ways to get points. if you have real skill, a normal highspeed flag can go a long way, along with tiny ect. you don't have to necessarily camp to get a good score. trust me, i've been there, done that :)
i concur. i've gotten a good 20 points using just a ST flag at hepcat.
Take that, beyotch.

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I hate those shot limits

Post by Supertanker » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:23 am

I totaly hate shot limits. on my personal lan, i never have them. maybey thats why the score is 65 to - 42 :)

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