Venting some Genocide frustration

Questions and comments on tactics and playstyles
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Sky King
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Venting some Genocide frustration

Post by Sky King » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:11 pm

My comments are mostly directed at Boxy, but this really applies anywhere that a CTF game has a geno flag...

I'm a pretty "situational awareness" player most of the time, and I rarely get hit by a geno but it does happen. And when it does, there's always... ALWAYS... someone who says "C'mon guys, just stay away from geno"...

I really want to counter this from a tactical perspective, and explain why this is horrible advice and a losing proposition.
  • 1. Avoiding geno is often impossible. A good geno player (and most of the people that go after geno are pretty experienced) knows just where to go to get kind of "lost" in a crowd. I try to put the geno carrier on hunt if I can, but sometimes it's just too hard to find the time. If a player is any good with geno at all, they won't let you just avoid them, period.

    2. Running away from geno will not make it go away. Sooner or later, you're gonna have to pay the price of taking him (or HER!) out. Just saying "stay away from him" sounds really great when you're typing it... but how, exactly, will he be killed if everyone does as you suggest and just runs away? He's not going away until you make him go away. He's not going to quit or self destruct just because he's tired of everyone running away.

    3. Related to point 2: If you just run away and don't challenge him, then he is now free to move to whatever location he feels is most advantageous to him, not to you. If you don't like where he is right now, you sure as heck won't like where he's going to be in a minute or two if you don't go after him. Let him get inside your boxy fort and camp outside your spawn zone... Assume you have 15 on your team (off-topic note: the new boxy limits are too high, I think)... That means if you take on the geno, and get him, but die trying... your team suffers 15 kills, but at least he's gone. If you run away and just let him roam freely and get into your spawn zone, then he is essentially guaranteed not 15, but 60... that's right, count 'em... SIXTY kills, plus whatever additional TKs happen after he's out of geno bullets. And your teammates start leaving out of frustration.

    4. If you're a more experienced player and you run away from geno, then you leave only your least experienced players to kill the geno... and thus you have sentenced yourself to several deaths.
At the risk of sounding a bit direct:

Boxy is an aggressive, small-map, in-your-face skirmish game. You have to have the killer instinct... you have to have that inate desire to want to close with and defeat your enemy, or he'll do it to you. You don't win on Boxy by cowering in your own fort like so many do... You win by putting pressure on your enemy... keeping him defensive, not letting him have time to organize and gain momentum, not letting him monopolize the center, and not letting him get multiple tanks camped inside your fort. if you're not the kind of person who wants to get "all up in your enemy's business", geno or not... then boxy is not for you.

I think that in every way, "c'mon guys, stay away from geno" is a losing proposition. And bluntly put... if you are not a good enough player to help prevent the enemy from getting geno, and not a good enough player to kill him before he gets close-up in our faces... then you're not a good enough player to be giving other players geno advice. Defeating geno is a team effort, and you're either part of it or you're not. Geno's die when you MAKE them die, they stop coming when you MAKE them stop coming, they stop trying to get it when you have so much pressure on them that it MAKES them just focus on survival. Nothing about saying "C'mon guys, stay away from him" makes him go away.

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Post by CannonBallGuy » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:29 pm

Your whole argument is flawed.
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Post by Winny » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:31 pm

Sky King wrote:I try to put the geno carrier on hunt if I can
Trepan has/will be adding flag hunting to 2.2.x.
Sky King wrote:Running away from geno will not make it go away.
Join a league, learn to dodge.
Sky King wrote:Related to point 2: If you just run away and don't challenge him, then he is now free to move to whatever location he feels is most advantageous to him, not to you
If you learn to dodge, his (geno) shots will be gone.
Sky King wrote:If you're a more experienced player and you run away from geno, then you leave only your least experienced players to kill the geno... and thus you have sentenced yourself to several deaths.
Yes, but if you clear the base, you do let the less experienced players have more room "to breathe" and they can then shoot more freely inside the base to kill the geno carrier.
Sky King wrote:Boxy is an aggressive, small-map, in-your-face skirmish game. You have to have the killer instinct... you have to have that inate desire to want to close with and defeat your enemy, or he'll do it to you.
Yes, I know you related this to boxy war, but on servers with a better balance, it is very easy to stay away from geno.
Sky King wrote:I think that in every way, "c'mon guys, stay away from geno" is a losing proposition
Infact, no. For me saying that, I have gotten players to place the geno carrier on hunt. Better, watch the trends of who has geno most often, and place them on hunt.

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Post by The Red Baron » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:07 pm

Sky King wrote:Boxy is an aggressive, small-map, in-your-face skirmish game. You have to have the killer instinct... you have to have that inate desire to want to close with and defeat your enemy, or he'll do it to you.
develop and hone that instinct, you'll be unstoppable. Learn to mebrace your opponent. burn with desire to take on multiple enemies and targets. Be a man, do not give them the pleasure of watching run or jump to safety, but stand your ground, dodge and fight back!

Then you will be unstoppable.
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Post by Sky King » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:32 pm

All very good points XP... let me address a couple of them with my thoughts...
Win Xp wrote:Trepan has/will be adding flag hunting to 2.2.x.
I love this idea. I think that even aside from hunting, that it would help balance out geno if it was always depicted by a highlighted blip on the radar. What I would really like to see is bilateral geno... if you get killed while carrying it, then your whole team dies.
Win Xp wrote:If you learn to dodge, his (geno) shots will be gone.
You are arguing in favor of the point I am making... If you just run away, then he's not going to be shooting at you, and thus not using up his bullets. You give him a free ride unless you challenge him... make him use up his bullets defending himself against you.

Again, a less experienced player is not going to be good at dodging, and running away and leaving the dodging to a newbie means, in the end, you still die.

I want geno on the defensive, using up his bullets in futility trying to kill an experienced player who knows how to dodge... not left alone, free to drive around and pick his prey.
Win Xp wrote:Join a league, learn to dodge.
Again, an argument in favor of what I am trying to say. The issue isn't whether I know how to dodge... My dodging skill does not matter one bit if I choose to drive away. It only matters if I am the one engaging the geno. What matters--the ONLY thing that matters-- is does the teammate left to tangle with geno on his own... does HE know how to dodge? That is exactly the point I am trying to make... the likelihood of you dying in a geno attack has NOTHING at all to do with your skill, it has only to do with the skill level of the player that is taking on the geno... and if that isn't you, then your skill at dodging has nothing to do with whether you live or die.
Sky King wrote:If you're a more experienced player and you run away from geno, then you leave only your least experienced players to kill the geno... and thus you have sentenced yourself to several deaths.
Win Xp wrote:Yes, but if you clear the base, you do let the less experienced players have more room "to breathe" and they can then shoot more freely inside the base to kill the geno carrier.
I agree in principle, but by then, it's too late... in boxy, second only to preventing capping, keeping geno out of your base is the second "prime directive". Let's face it, once geno is sitting outside your spawn zone, you're just plain in a bad spot. There's no dodging when you're being spawn killed.

I think you're right on here... when your fort becomes infiltrated, whether by OO, CL, or G... you need people to get out to free up space, reduce TKs, etc.
Win Xp wrote:Yes, I know you related this to boxy war, but on servers with a better balance, it is very easy to stay away from geno.
I concur. Geno is a different animal on different servers. The open spaces of Two Castles... The team work and skill level of league play... these things change the nature of geno. But to me, the principle is always the same... I want geno to be actively engaged by experienced players, not left to prey on less experienced players. I want geno to be engaged at a place, and by players, that are of my choosing, never of his.

But on boxy... This passive approach of "hopefully, he'll just go away" or "hopefully, he'll use up all his bullets" leaves the geno player all the choices. I assume that when someone like Wes has the geno flag, he knows where to go, who to look for, and when to fire his precious bullets. Left to his own devices he will not use up his bullets on shots that are likely to miss, or be dodged unless I pressure him to.

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Post by Winny » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:57 pm

Sky King wrote:Again, an argument in favor of what I am trying to say. The issue isn't whether I know how to dodge...
Dodging is not running away.

Dodging is moving your tank in such a way as to confuse you enemy as to shooting in the wrong area, or to miss bullets that have been shot at your previous position.

Once your enemy has used his shots, or must reload, this is when you go to the offensive side of play, and kill him. Usually using a combination of ricochets and "smart shooting"

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Post by Sky King » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:05 pm

I agree... We agree...

If you go back to my original post... My frustration is with people saying things like "C'mon guys, just stay away from geno"...

I have no issue at all with people being careful around geno, and trying to outwit him... that IS what I am proposing. I personally try very, very hard to kill a geno during the transition... My best skill in BZ is jump-sniping, and usually I can get into a position to jump-snipe the geno as he jumps out of the center, or as he walks the diagonal walls. 9 times out of 10, I get him before he ever fires a shot. But 1 time out of 10 he gets me in the process... And that is always followed by "c'mon guys, just stay away from him". The geno's job is to make sure you can't just stay away from him.

You have to work him... dodge, shoot... get him to expend ammo, keep him from making a successful jump inot your base... and you can't do those things, or any of the things you propose if you just "run away".

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Post by Winny » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:03 am

Ah, the way you had made your 2nd and 1st post I was a touch un-clear of your meanings.


I thought you had meant that dodging - in your mind frame - was running away.

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How true...

Post by Brave Sir Robin » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:57 pm

After reading this post yesterday (I agree, by the way, just from my little experience), just yesterday I was playing on Boxy, we were getting genoed and someone said "here's an idea...stay away from the geno!" I shook my head and replied "here's an idea...kill the geno...he's not going away"
The attitude's definitely out there. :?

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Post by CannonBallGuy » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:25 pm

Wow, you guys don't know this?
Boxy war has awful lag. Hitting someone with a single shot is tough work.
Boxy war has a 3 shot limit for geno. Shooting people that are trying to avoid you is tough.

Often (and I mean, most of the time) I make all my 3 geno shots count on boxy war. I do this by waiting for noobs to just jump into my path.

If the noobs just stayed away from me, I'd get almost no kills.
This is not because I'm a noob, but because a player that's about the same as me ability and experience wise, can easily kill me with Laser, SW, CL or ST because I want to make all 3 geno shots count and the combined lag will be too much for me to do this.

Noobs just don't see that I have geno so it's easy to shoot ahead of them with geno.

I do say "Try to avoid the guy with geno", but when I do, I instantly go after them. I don't want noobs blocking my shots or (worse) getting hit by geno. I'll make the geno guy waste his 3 shots. If I can't stop him in time, I don't want noobs ust driving or jumping right infront of the guy without thinking - which is how 95% of geno kills happen.
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Post by TD-Linux » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:38 pm

Geno is going to be harder to get on Boxy War, but that really just sidesteps the problem.

I'm afraid that I can't change people's playing styles, but is there anything we can do on BoxyWar to help with the 'problem' you have?

CBG, the BZFX server has a 100Mbit connection and has very low lag, so the problem is the client. Do you suggest a harsher lagkick?

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Post by CannonBallGuy » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:47 pm

I know all about the server, I host on it too. The point is, it's west coast USA - which is a stupid place for a bzflag server, imho.
East coast would make sense as the average lag for all of the USA should be the same, but at least the Europeans like myself would have slightly more bearable lag.

Lagkick at 200ms would be nice, yes...
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Re: Venting some Genocide frustration

Post by Saber » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:03 am

[quote="Sky King]that's right, count 'em... SIXTY kills[/quote]

If I count them it's 45. 3 geno shots and 15 or less players : 15x3=45.

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Re: Venting some Genocide frustration

Post by Sky King » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:41 am

Saber wrote:
Sky King wrote:that's right, count 'em... SIXTY kills
If I count them it's 45. 3 geno shots and 15 or less players : 15x3=45.
Doh! For some reason I was thinking 4 shots, I got my servers mixed up.

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another way

Post by soad freak » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:29 am

well somtimes when im in a tight spot in boxy and i think geno will hit i commit suicide (backspace) to save my team these points are very wierd. I think learn to doge geno and go after the person with geno and get geno ureself. if u dont like gno on boxy dont play boxy. Win Xp make better ponts :lol-old:

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Post by RexFlex » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:49 pm

I am one of those people who call for staying away from geno.

I don't mean run away from it. I don't mean don't shoot at it. I mean don't go charging into the middle of the Boxy map where you have to jump in there while the geno is waiting for your most vulnerable moment of landing.

It is a very common mistake in Boxy. People unapologetic ally charge into the middle putting the entire team at extreme risk of tactical calamity. Not only does everyone die, but the opposing team often gets sufficient time to position themselves so that it is very difficult for your team to recover any tactical advantage.

If only everyone waited for the tank holding geno to expose themselves by either leaving the middle or by resting on the platform that can be sniped by a dropping tank in the corners. It would make it so much harder for them to do that damage.

Charging the middle is not only extraordinarily stupid, it is extraordinarily selfish. Want people like me to stop telling you to stay away from geno? Then stay away from geno.
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin paid; mostly only when I'm gettin paid. But eating people alive, when does that get fun?"

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Post by Sky King » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:59 pm

RexFlex wrote:I mean don't go charging into the middle of the Boxy map where you have to jump in there while the geno is waiting for your most vulnerable moment of landing.
I agree... I choose a "role" when I go onto a map and try to stick with that for a bit. On boxy, my best skill, and most common role is being a laser-based counter-sniper, where I look for perched snipers, GMs, and the geno and try to kill them from fairly long ranges.

I'm not that great a dodger, so my best advantage is stand-off, that is, to keep a distance between the geno and I that gives my laser the big advantage... even if he knows the shot is coming, I can usually jump, hit him, and be long gone before his bullets arrive. Even if I miss the shot, all but the most disciplined geno operators will instinctively fire at me, and use up that precious ammo.

On boxy, the laser, GM, and SW are the weapons of choice for killing geno... and ST if you get behind him. But I agree... the frontal assault is usually suicide.

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Post by GMMan » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:10 pm

I killed quite a few genos and to-be genos on the Boxy War map version before the current one (I call it 2.1.0) It was easy then, but these days trying to GM someone has been way harder.
Last edited by GMMan on Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Enigma » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:18 am

Whenever i say "Stay away from geno," I'm just trying to prevent not-so-good players from jumping at the geno-holder, because jumping near someone who has geno is generally not a good idea.

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The greenhorn asks...

Post by yosef » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:35 am

What is geno and what is the flag notation? :?:

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Post by dartman » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:34 pm

^I would say make a new thread for that, but I don't think anyone would mind me going a bit off topic to answer your questions. 'Sides, you're a fellow Houstonian. :)

Geno is short for Genocide, a flag in BZFlag that allows you to shoot at one tank and kill his/her whole team. It's abbreviation is G. Very dangerous flag. The shooter gets one point for everyone on the opposing team that got killed, that is if the bullet hit it's target. When holding the flag, you also have to be really careful to not shoot anyone on your team, because your whole team will die, and you'll lose points for everyone on your team. Plus you'll end up blowing up yourself.

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Post by TD-Linux » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:54 pm

GMMan wrote:I killed quite a few genos and to-be genos on the map version before the current one (I call it 2.1.0) It was easy then, but these days trying to GM someone has been way harder.
I must ask, what in this version makes GM harder? I'm guessing that it's because the 4 walls in the center are a lot bigger... am I right? I'm working on a fix for that, but it's a rather hard problem to fix.

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Post by Joe-Schmoe » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:09 pm

The problem is, you want to keep noobs away from Geno, but you want the experienced players attacking the Geno. So sometimes, saying "Stay away from Geno" is meant to simply deter the newbies and give others more room.

Also, you can't expect these people who tell you to stay away to know who got hit and how good that players is. I'm sure those people don't mean EVERYONE to stay away. Perhaps what they should say is "lookout for the geno" instead.

When someone says that, I just ignore them and try to take out the genoer.

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Post by GMMan » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:11 am

TD-Linux wrote:
GMMan wrote:I killed quite a few genos and to-be genos on the map version before the current one (I call it 2.1.0) It was easy then, but these days trying to GM someone has been way harder.
I must ask, what in this version makes GM harder? I'm guessing that it's because the 4 walls in the center are a lot bigger... am I right? I'm working on a fix for that, but it's a rather hard problem to fix.
True, it is the walls. When I'm trying to GM someone jumping to the center wall, the GM just hits the wall and explodes.
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Post by TD-Linux » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:28 am

GMMan wrote:
TD-Linux wrote:
GMMan wrote:I killed quite a few genos and to-be genos on the map version before the current one (I call it 2.1.0) It was easy then, but these days trying to GM someone has been way harder.
I must ask, what in this version makes GM harder? I'm guessing that it's because the 4 walls in the center are a lot bigger... am I right? I'm working on a fix for that, but it's a rather hard problem to fix.
True, it is the walls. When I'm trying to GM someone jumping to the center wall, the GM just hits the wall and explodes.
Should be fixed in what I suppose we could call 2.1.1. Just is first being hosted today. There is actually a revision number that goes along with the BoxyWar map, which you will see if you checkout the map from the SVN server. We are at revision 60 or so right now.

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