Vote for Preferred LaserMania Version Here

[LouMan]

UPDATE: Poll is no longer required - see Version 10 info further down in this post.


Thumper and I are polling to see which version of Laser Mania is preferred so that we can host the most popular version. Please vote for your favorite!

Version 8.1: No small barriers protecting spawn areas
Version 9.1: Small barriers protecting spawn areas

The poll will run for 3 days, at the end of which the most popular version will be put on the server.

[A Meteorite]

I like 8.1 - even though camping can get very annoying. There is always a way to avoid it once and fry them with your freshly unloaded laser.

And you can always go spawn camp too, that's always fun (especially after they got to toast you for a bit).

[^nightmare^]

8.1
Although im not a big fan of the sniping maps, im always for camping

[m1a1]

I love the new barriers. Prob. if we shortened them a little on the outer edges so the corners can still be used to cover an attack, that might persuade the critics to accept them

[ducatiwannabe]

I can't test out either until my bzflag starts working, but I'd be interested in seeing the one with the barriers before I say my opinion...

[styx]

i havent played on the 9.1 version, but i like the sound of the barriers.

[cotechino]

Voted for 8.1

[unsound methods]

Nice idea; but after trying it a bit, voted for 8.1.
my 9.1 analysis -

Defense point of view:
Got very hard to defend against an attacker located in the base/spawn area, since he's too protected by the barriers. The ability to shoot him just before he jumps on a conveyor was a crucial part of defense.

Attacker point of view:
Capture made easier. Can survive more easily at enemy's base/spawn area. No real challenge.

Anyway, try running the poll a little longer, so you'll have sufficient votes for this critical issue

d.p.

[Winny]

I like 8.1 ( no barriers)

[Duck Season]

I think the barriers are more trouble than they're worth at the moment.

If the goal is to prevent spawn killing, that can be accomplished with fewer barriers and none at all in the back tower area. With this many, it's much harder to defend against flag cap -- the person stealing needs to be exposed more while they're on the ground.

If the goal is to prevent corner sniping, just the ones at the ends of row 3 should be sufficient for that. Make those longer so that they meet the edge berms, so you can't snipe around them.

[dead metal 3121]

I voted for 8.1 because i love sniping people. Even though i get lag kicked.

[ducatiwannabe]

I think the barriers are a cool idea to help with camping.

Although, I think 8.1 might be better.

[Friar Tuck]

Re. spawnkilling after a victory: I recently played a CTF map which required all players to meet on a platform in order to cap. Would it be possible to create a "cap zone" on the 'mania map, say behind a team's own row 4 or 5, in which all active tanks would have to be located in order to win? This would prevent both backfield spawnkillers and the even more annoying "instant recap" by giving the other side a chance to regroup.

The defensive problems with 9.1 have been mentioned by others. I'd add that a. the barriers haven't actually prevented spawnkilling in the back, and in fact have made it harder to eliminate those shooters, so you've really only traded corner killing for backfield killing; and b. the strategic value of taking a corner has been eliminated, making the outside rows a virtual dead zone. The 9.1 map has essentially reduced the game to a joust on the center rails, and it's not very interesting. In the unfortunate event that 9.1 wins this straw poll, I hope Lou will be willing to release the older version so someone else can host it.

[LW Now Ask Me How!]

After doing a couple of spawn kills on some of the top players I really got the 'heat' and can see why this 9.x map is now out.

Maybe the 50+ crowd is repulsed by spawn killing... so what.
Us regular negative scorers get like one rare chance in a while to do some of it. I don't think it is that much of an impact on the overall game.

If spawn killing is so detested, then make the spawn point in the base of the tower and put a small perimeter of walls around that.
This will keep the 'KITTENS' from corner shooting down that far.

I find that certain cats like to work the sides for those long shots.

Anyway, 8.1 for me.
I find these new walls make it too easy to make it back to your base with their flag. When I feel I might make it then it is way too easy.

[Duck Season]

the strategic value of taking a corner has been eliminated, making the outside rows a virtual dead zone.

An excellent point. Corners in 8.1 are like corners in Othello (aka Reversi) -- supremely valuable real estate. Not only can you kill tanks diving for the ST flag (a worthwhile endeavor) but you can whip around if somebody's capping *your* flag and cover one of their two best escape routes. This also means that advancing up a side is a bolder and riskier move. In 9.1 you're screened, and it's trivially easy.

[ducatiwannabe]

After playing it again, I think the barriers are a good idea, but maybe only one of them or keep it like it was.

[Spazzy McGee]

i rekon the barriers do improve the gameplay. but i wasn't there for long....

[oldmanstan]

Re. spawnkilling after a victory: I recently played a CTF map which required all players to meet on a platform in order to cap. Would it be possible to create a "cap zone" on the 'mania map, say behind a team's own row 4 or 5, in which all active tanks would have to be located in order to win? This would prevent both backfield spawnkillers and the even more annoying "instant recap" by giving the other side a chance to regroup.

I like this idea ALOT, this would also force a little more teamwork since one person couldn't do all the capping. If someone absolutely refused to cooperate with the team they could always be kicked since refusing to allow your team to cap is basically like tking or using the thief flag on your own team in some servers...

also, this idea would possibly force teams to hold the flag a little longer, making defense and, again, teamwork more important.

[Dr Pangloss]

Re. spawnkilling after a victory: I recently played a CTF map which required all players to meet on a platform in order to cap. Would it be possible to create a "cap zone" on the 'mania map, say behind a team's own row 4 or 5, in which all active tanks would have to be located in order to win? This would prevent both backfield spawnkillers and the even more annoying "instant recap" by giving the other side a chance to regroup.

I like this idea ALOT, this would also force a little more teamwork since one person couldn't do all the capping.

It's a much better idea than the barriers, which tilt the advantage of the game to STs (it's not called "Stealthmania") and really did kill a portion of the map. The "dead zone" description is spot-on IMO. Also, a capping zone would force camping GMs out of the opposing tower, which is the biggest no-skill score fluff the map allows.

Sorry to see how close the vote is- and interesting to note that some of the pro-9.1 posters aren't people I usually see playing.

[PsYch0]

I really agree with dusty_patton on his defense and attacker perspectives.

However, if this map were to win, the types of modifications mentioned by ThatTallGuy would be much appreciated.

As for my own points: In your original presentation of LaserMania, you said that you think of this map as a sniping map; I feel that camping is a part of sniping - sitting there waiting for the enemy and shooting him when you see him. It's all camping.

So if it's spawn camping that you're trying to protect from, aside from ThatTallGuy's suggestions, you might think about the following:
1) spawning seems to occur categorically; that is, while a player's exact position appears to be "random," the general location in which they spawn seems to rotate. People are either spawning on the left, or the right, or the center, air spawning or not. If one is doing it, more than one are more likely spawning the same way. Try changing this to something more overall random so the likelihood of a spawn camper catching 15 kills in 1 minute drops to a very low probability. Of course, this could be part of the bzflag engine and not your map -- just a suggestion...

2) Have one long wall barrier on each end of the map - say, one of the first 3 walls. Have this barrier stretch COMPLETELY from one side wall fast-track to the other (i.e. inpenetrable); then open up two slots which are positioned such that the next wall blocks them from down range sight, aiming, shooting, etc. Have all spawns happen behind this wall. This gives a barrier (like the first wall in front of base) that is only physicallly penetrable. An enemy tank must drive the entire length of the map before being able to pass through it (obviously), but also cannot see through it, shoot through it, and so on. Plus, having those slots misaligned from other slots means spawning players will be able to drive out into the rest of the field without being immediately shot (i.e. elimination of spawn killing/camping).

Take a look at the following crude example and try to get a feeling for how "closed off" the base area is; the "problem" with the current version is that the base area seems wide open. This would solve ST sniping and spawn sniping; however, it could create problems for CTF.
===============================
\...____...____.../
-\__...____...__/
--\..........B........./
---\.........T......./

B=base, T=tower
\ / _ = wall
.... = open space
-- = area off map
===============================

3) Just as a "rejoiner" cannot spawn for some time; perhaps a spawner cannot shoot or be shot for like a second or so. That gives them time to gain their senses and move a bit.

Anyway - there're my thoughts...

[ducatiwannabe]

Ok, my dad and I definitely say 8.1

[LouMan]

Food for thought: how about individal spawn zones, protected by small 'force fields' (drive-thru, but not shoot-thru - semi-transparent) - this would allow safe spawns, but not clutter the map excessively...

[Think_Different]

8.1 is still the best

[Winny]

Ok, my dad and I definitely say 8.1

your dad plays ?

[Spazzy McGee]

Food for thought: how about individal spawn zones, protected by small 'force fields' (drive-thru, but not shoot-thru - semi-transparent) - this would allow safe spawns, but not clutter the map excessively...

that's what i was just thinking. I say go for that.