We want to hear from you !

Please discuss issues concerning the Ducati League here. This is the liaison between league players and the league council.
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We want to hear from you !

Post by menotume » Wed May 10, 2006 7:46 pm

The Ducati League Council is eager to hear from the players. Please tell us what your concerns and suggestions are to make the league more active and more fun.

The council would like to know what the most important issues are. Please tell us here!

Please note that unrelated posts may be deleted from this thread. Please do NOT mention player names here, let's keep the discussions general in nature. If you have an issue regarding a specific player, please contact a council member directly.

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Post by mistake » Fri May 12, 2006 12:14 am

Ok, no names, but I think, that certain team leaders, after multiple TKing in matches, should deserve some kind of punishment. As punishment, I think they should remove any match info update bugs on any league site code they might have written.
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Post by mistake » Sat May 13, 2006 3:34 am

I think the ducati league lost a lot of attraction since last years ME debates. The league has more or less been struggling since then. It very much was the birth of the "us and them" mentality which constituted itself in pickness about whom to match and resulted in that matches where not played for the factor of playing a match, but to deliver a point.
It turned to either conquer the league or staying away.

This very in contrast to the GU league, where you had most teams that liked the game for the challenge it gives and proving that great and challenging matches does not contradict with playing competative. Though both leagues have their exceptions, the number of players that think this way and play this way in the ducati league is just way to little. I don't think I have to "contact a council member directly" to say that i cant praise enough people like catay and a few others, and without them the ducati league would merely be a nostalgia like pacman.

Its a pitty to see all the work and time invested by people like menotume and dmp go to waste.

Though the new council may come up with more attractive gamestyles or more convenient match length, I doubt they can shape the attitude of players about their way of playing this game. But it is about time there is an instance who's decisive voice was missed with all the debates in the past and I wish it good luck in reversing the past years development.

The reason why people would join a league is when they see high level matches with good players battling each other and having fun and 8 observers watching it and beeing inspired by it. I remember those times when i just discovered this game. Generally teams are now heavely unbalanced, won matches are begrudged or teams are simply inactive.
It is not sufficient to say here is the playing field and some new rules, go have fun kids. The league is as good as the players playing it, you should be playing, and playing for the challenge and the fun if you want an attractive league.

edit. shortened it a bit:D
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Post by mistake » Sat May 13, 2006 1:08 pm

Some suggestions:

8) Every team has to play every other team once every two (or longer periods) month. If two teams haven't matched in the course of two month, both teams loose 50 points (or a percentage of their current rating)

:? Teams should be discouraged of teaming up to avoid having to match each other.

:twisted: Council members have to match atleast 1 match a week, otherwise they loose council status (once a month would be great too)

:( Admin or council members are not allowed to back up oppinions in private discussion but keep quite in public.

:wink: inactive teammembers are to be removed from teams. Inactive means not having played a match in about 4 month.

:shock: having enough time to play a match and having a teammate on, you are not allowed reject matches. You may however if you have matched that team already on that day or if you have already matched two other teams that day
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Post by birdie » Sat May 13, 2006 3:47 pm

I dont like the thought you are forced to match every one. In the end its your own choice who you match or who you dont want to match.(for whatever reason it is)

removing inactive people from teams...why dont you let the teamleader decide about that?

and not being able to reject a match...it can have lots of reasons why a person would say no, i doubt you can force every one to play.(again for whatever reason they dont want)

and indeed its easy to give critics to some thoughts like you did..but to give better suggestions.... :(

but i do wanted to say this to express my opinion about this

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Post by mistake » Sat May 13, 2006 6:56 pm

Hehe, I can see why you don't like the ideas.
Could say so many more things to you, but why bother.

I have a couple of other suggestions to make:

- you are only allowed to post after having played a match
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Post by birdie » Sat May 13, 2006 7:26 pm

now dont go that way...if you have problems with me, thats your own choice

all i wanted to do was to give my reaction to some of your ideas on a nice way, there was no need to react on the way you did..
Last edited by birdie on Sat May 13, 2006 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mistake » Sat May 13, 2006 7:36 pm

Look, I am pretty sure that all of my ideas are pretty far from reality, I posted them to illustrate what kind of league I want to play in, and with what kind of people I want to play with. If there was enough players in the ducati league that has no problem with actually playing matches, I wouldn't even have a need to post these. And if it wasn't for people like menotume or catay, I also wouldn't have bothered to actually post here either.

I was hoping I got a point or two across, if i failed....
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Post by menotume » Sat May 13, 2006 8:08 pm

Points well taken, mistake AND birdie.

There are logistical problems with some of them, that would have to be worked out.
IE: if 2 teams don't match, they both lose 50 pts. What if one team was availble and willing to match, but the other not. Who decides?
Also, there is no way (currently) to determine when players match, so the 4-month rule would be difficult.

Increasing activity is a good idea, perhaps there are other ways to do it, too. I can think of a few, but would rather hear what others have to say first :)

Also, i don't understand this one:
Admin or council members are not allowed to back up oppinions in private discussion but keep quite in public.
Probably a language barrier.

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Post by mistake » Sat May 13, 2006 8:38 pm

menotume wrote: Also, i don't understand this one:
Admin or council members are not allowed to back up oppinions in private discussion but keep quite in public.
Probably a language barrier.
Hehe, i have choosen my points well so everybody has something to chew on :P
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Post by kierra » Sat May 13, 2006 8:44 pm

#1. I think mistake intented for his suggestions to lead to a more active league....all teams matching at fairly frequent intervals.
Every team has to play every other team once every two (or longer periods) month. If two teams haven't matched in the course of two month, both teams loose 50 points (or a percentage of their current rating)
Lets not lose the bottom line idea of increasing matching activity by all teams, not just a select 2-4 teams.
Personally, there are some that I do not/and will not match on principle.

#2.
Council members have to match at least 1 match a week, otherwise they loose council status (once a month would be great too)

I'm guessing that mistake's point is that council members be "in touch" with the game...and he measures that by requiring them to match. Are there others ways of measuring activity in ducati league? Some would say yes: running servers, being part of the active background support. There seems to be the notion by many that if you don't match you're not active in the league. This will have to be addressed and Activity defined.

#3. Longterm inactive players seem to be a problem. We have huge teams (10-12 players, with about 30% being inactive). There should be some way to address that. Why be on a team if you're not going to ever match? <--genuine curious question, not sarcasm. :)

#4. I think we need to be careful in how we respond here to another's post....this thread is for ideas to be freely shared...without condemnation by anyone. NO FLAME WARS ALLOWED unless you want to be deleted.
All ideas should be welcome....without sarcasm or personal attacks.

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Post by CannonBallGuy » Sat May 13, 2006 9:18 pm

mistake wrote:- you are only allowed to post after having played a match
Didn't like the sound of any other suggestions, Foo, sorry, but this one here sounds great. I hate those whiners and complainers...
Though I am totally inactive at ducati, I doubt my word counts for much.
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Post by SportChick » Sat May 13, 2006 9:47 pm

I chatted with Foo earlier on a server, and he asked me to post this publicly. In each post, someone suggests some sort of change. Two things must be gleened from the post: (1) what is the change the person is asking for, and (2) what is the underlying issue the change is designed to correct.

While every suggestion may not be able to be implemented, the council will take each issue seriously and try to determine the most effective way to address it.

I've heard a lot of variations on the point loss for inactivity. Obviously, inactivity is a big issue for everyone right now. I'm interested to hear what other ideas folks have to help address the activity problem.

Respectfully,

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Post by slime » Sat May 13, 2006 10:20 pm

Maybe players themselves could be recognized a bit more. I know on a lot of servers and/or websites, you can see what you're ranked overall , against everyone else who's ever played.

Example: Silvercat website , shows top 11 people.
M0f0 website , shows top 200 people.
Gamesunited , shows everyone's ranking , if you choose to see it.

I don't know about the rest of you , but i use this as motivation. I like being recognized by people as being good. So lately , i've been playing much at those servers , because of this reason.

Maybe you all could think of some variations of this , that would benifit more. I know you all have creative minds.

My 2Cents.

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Post by Xell » Tue May 16, 2006 9:01 pm

One big problem with the ducati league is that it seems some kind of closed. Maybe all the people who play for a long time never made that experience, but i still remember that i started with both maps/leagues, GU and Ducati. And although im playing for quite a while now, i still feel like i'm a stranger in the ducati league, unlike GU. After i thought about that, i saw some things which could lead to the uncommunicativeness of the ducati league:
1. There match server is private, so it doesn't show up in the list. One can only see at zeebrothers if there is a match going on. But if it was visible, some more people would join, observe and organise other matches.
2. At every ducati map, there are only 8 player slots. In crowded evenings, the map is always full, and the people are switching to gu or another server. Of course there are several ducati-style servers, but it would be better to have one big server with much people on it. I'd say the server should have at least 6 slots per team.

These two suggestion are just for making this whole league a bit more communicative, which is the main problem imho. The people have to watch the matches, talk to eatch other and also join a game whenever they want (what they can't when it's full all the time).

Oh, and i read the posts of tokimi, Admirach, mistake and all the others. It was very interesting, and made me think about this game the first time :) And believe, even if i hang around at gu much more, i'd rather play ducati matches. But at the moment, there is nothing to hang around.

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Post by chtibidasse » Thu May 18, 2006 1:47 pm

slime wrote:Maybe players themselves could be recognized a bit more. I don't know about the rest of you , but i use this as motivation. I like being recognized by people as being good. So lately , i've been playing much at those servers , because of this reason.

My 2Cents.
Well well, but what if you're bad (as, for instance, myself...)? :oops:
I must admit that as long as I'd find someone behind me in the ranking list, I'd find some interest in this list. :lol-old:



About how to encourage people to match more and more: a kind of championship as it happened twice in the 1vs1 league (a "tournament"?). A lot of matches has been played at this occasion, wich wouldn't have been played otherwise.
:arrow: With such a thing 2 (or 3 or ... 10...) times a year, AND having the regular championship, maybe more players will be encouraged to act?

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Post by kierra » Fri May 19, 2006 1:50 pm

1.
from xell: I don't think much rotation would be good within a group which has to decide things together, as a team.
I have to agree that rotating half the membership twice a year is too much. You will lose those who have gained experience in the 6 months of service and also lose a sense of continuity. Imagine having to play catch-up every 6 months on council issues. The sheer reading volume in the past 2 weeks is voluminous....imagine playing catch-up with half the council members every 6 months...ai!
Yearly rotation of maybe 1/3 of council (thats 3 with current council of 10 ) would introduce new faces/ideas/approaches without majorly disrupting progress.
Perhaps, there could be an interim time (~1 mon) where in-coming council memb were given access to duccouncil forum to update themselves to the current issues before stepping into the role.

2. The idea of a championship similar to the 1vs1 tourney is a great one. That tourney generates alot of interest and activity.

3. Resetting team standing once a year has appeal. It could breathe new interest in matching as the goal is once again attainable for all. Plus team membership is somewhat fluid.......the current players on a high ranking team may not be the same ones who got them into that position.

humbly submitted

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Post by bamf. » Fri May 19, 2006 5:45 pm

mistake wrote: Every team has to play every other team once every two (or longer periods) month. If two teams haven't matched in the course of two month, both teams loose 50 points (or a percentage of their current rating)
I believe that will do more to discourage players rather than encourage.
mistake wrote: :? Teams should be discouraged of teaming up to avoid having to match each other.
I don't even think this is a problem, is it?
mistake wrote: :twisted: Council members have to match atleast 1 match a week, otherwise they loose council status (once a month would be great too)
You have something here, although once per week is kind of extreme. On the otherhand, some have different roles from simply playing. There are server owners, developers, etc.
mistake wrote: inactive teammembers are to be removed from teams. Inactive means not having played a match in about 4 month.
This is a horrible idea. I don't want someone telling me who I can have on my team. For instance, I've been playing bzflag with Sniper-50 for 7 or so years, almost 4 years on the same ducati league team. He has long periods of inactivity but always returns ;)
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Post by SportChick » Fri May 19, 2006 8:58 pm

Xell wrote:2. At every ducati map, there are only 8 player slots. In crowded evenings, the map is always full, and the people are switching to gu or another server. Of course there are several ducati-style servers, but it would be better to have one big server with much people on it. I'd say the server should have at least 6 slots per team.
This has been done. Pimpi put up dub.bzflag.org:5157. It has slots for 6v6. Try it out!
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Post by chtibidasse » Mon May 22, 2006 8:48 am

SportChick wrote:
Xell wrote:2. I'd say the server should have at least 6 slots per team.
This has been done. Pimpi put up dub.bzflag.org:5157. It has slots for 6v6. Try it out!
6-6 is really good.
I tried a bit yesterday, and did my worst scores since a long time, but it was great.

It's a kind of madness; it looks like . . . well . . . :shock: imagine a pillbox (=many tanks) in a rico map. Shoots come from everywhere. Good for radar training...

Just go and try!

Chtibid' :turtle:

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Post by Mur » Wed May 24, 2006 1:15 am

i believe that everyone should have the right to choose who they want to match and when.[/quote]

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Post by SportChick » Wed May 24, 2006 10:44 pm

Xell wrote:One big problem with the ducati league is that it seems some kind of closed. Maybe all the people who play for a long time never made that experience, but i still remember that i started with both maps/leagues, GU and Ducati. And although im playing for quite a while now, i still feel like i'm a stranger in the ducati league, unlike GU.
This is a very small thing, and I think would work best if done informally, but if you notice a new team has been created (or a new player has joined), why not send them a little note of welcome? Introduce yourself, challenge them, say something to let them know they've been noticed. Sort of the bz-welcome wagon. Even if a team only got 3-4 of those sorts of bzmails, it would be a nice surprise.
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Post by tokimi » Thu May 25, 2006 2:58 pm

Getting a message from the Council would be good, then maybe an auto one from
the league for first match, fifth match, etc. Of course whats important is getting
recognition from the other active teams in the league. It should be the job of each
team captain to recognize the new teams. granted, not every one will be on the
ball every time, but getting 3 or 4 would most likely be nice for the new teams
who have never done this before.
The very young do not always do as they are told, and the very old never listen any way.

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Post by Xell » Fri May 26, 2006 9:12 am

tokimi wrote:Getting a message from the Council would be good, then maybe an auto one from
the league for first match, fifth match, etc. Of course whats important is getting
recognition from the other active teams in the league. It should be the job of each
team captain to recognize the new teams. granted, not every one will be on the
ball every time, but getting 3 or 4 would most likely be nice for the new teams
who have never done this before.
Mabe someone could also write an explanation about how the things work in the league, so they aren't left alone. That could be ( automatically ) send to all new teams. I often saw messages in the forum from new members/teams who had no idea what to do then.

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Post by mistake » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:13 am

SportChick wrote:This has been done. Pimpi put up dub.bzflag.org:5157. It has slots for 6v6. Try it out!
Why not on 5154 and 5156 too? First time i come and play since more than a week, and all slots are taken :D
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