The purpose and problems of teamscores
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:08 pm
Ok, this will probably be abit hard for me to get acrossed, but bear with me.
When I read peoples suggestions and problems toward the teamscores (including my own activity factor) it seems like people have different expectations for what teamscore means.
I see two different purposes:
Teamscores is secondary when matching
This is what we got now, as I see it. Teamscores isnt the main goal when matching. Having fun is. Teamscores is just to make it abit more interesting, but isnt really required. This is how I play. I dont care less if we lose a match, because teamscore is secondary.
This is why ELO fits this purpose very well. All teams can play whenever possible, no planning (tournament-like) is required. And it handles that strong match again weaker team. And that same teams play against eachother time after time again.
It fails when players want their team to be the best. First of all. Teamscore is just a skill-estimation. As every team consist of many players they can create a number of combinations of 2-3-4 players to match other teams. Each combination would vary (a lot) in skill. I think that is why teamscores fluctuate so much for teams.
So teamscore is basically some random number within the skillwise highest and lowest combination of player. This is bad if you want to see you team improve and "win it all". Because if team X and Y plays against eachother their "random" teamscore decides how much is earned/lost for that match.
Teamscore is the mean to "win it all"
This is more competetive approach. Players play to be the best, to be the top ranking team. Here activity (and therefore oppurtinuty to play them) is important.
Activity can be measured, but we still faces the same problem with "random teamscores" and hence random rewards for wining a match. So activity factor dosnt really fix anything.
Resetting scores wont do it either. Well it will, in the short periode were all teams are (nearly) even in score.
An alternative is to use an similar approach as i did with the ladder. Instead of rating every team then begin to rate every player (might make them more active too?). And let general teamscore be based on the average (or similar) of the players. When two teams match eachother then the teamscore is the sum of the players participating. This would probably make teamscores abit less fluctuating, beause a team strongest combination of players would give them a high score while they weakest players would give them a lower score. Then activity would need to be expicit handled - and everything is complicated.
But still, if allowing teams to "win it all", is the purpose, then ELO simply not feasible. Then take the full step and structure matches give fixed points for loss/draw/wins. Let team themselves worry about who will match when and reset scores every year. This is easy to understand, but eliminates the "hey lets play a mach"-matches. And activity is shown directly in the point (if you lose 1 point, draw 2, win 3) - inactivy is rewarded with zero points.
So my point is. What do we want with teamscore? I've outlined two extremes. The solution is probably somewhat in-between. But where? Im not sure what direction people feels but the suggestions I've seen seems to suggest that people want both. Which is hard to get
When I read peoples suggestions and problems toward the teamscores (including my own activity factor) it seems like people have different expectations for what teamscore means.
I see two different purposes:
Teamscores is secondary when matching
This is what we got now, as I see it. Teamscores isnt the main goal when matching. Having fun is. Teamscores is just to make it abit more interesting, but isnt really required. This is how I play. I dont care less if we lose a match, because teamscore is secondary.
This is why ELO fits this purpose very well. All teams can play whenever possible, no planning (tournament-like) is required. And it handles that strong match again weaker team. And that same teams play against eachother time after time again.
It fails when players want their team to be the best. First of all. Teamscore is just a skill-estimation. As every team consist of many players they can create a number of combinations of 2-3-4 players to match other teams. Each combination would vary (a lot) in skill. I think that is why teamscores fluctuate so much for teams.
So teamscore is basically some random number within the skillwise highest and lowest combination of player. This is bad if you want to see you team improve and "win it all". Because if team X and Y plays against eachother their "random" teamscore decides how much is earned/lost for that match.
Teamscore is the mean to "win it all"
This is more competetive approach. Players play to be the best, to be the top ranking team. Here activity (and therefore oppurtinuty to play them) is important.
Activity can be measured, but we still faces the same problem with "random teamscores" and hence random rewards for wining a match. So activity factor dosnt really fix anything.
Resetting scores wont do it either. Well it will, in the short periode were all teams are (nearly) even in score.
An alternative is to use an similar approach as i did with the ladder. Instead of rating every team then begin to rate every player (might make them more active too?). And let general teamscore be based on the average (or similar) of the players. When two teams match eachother then the teamscore is the sum of the players participating. This would probably make teamscores abit less fluctuating, beause a team strongest combination of players would give them a high score while they weakest players would give them a lower score. Then activity would need to be expicit handled - and everything is complicated.
But still, if allowing teams to "win it all", is the purpose, then ELO simply not feasible. Then take the full step and structure matches give fixed points for loss/draw/wins. Let team themselves worry about who will match when and reset scores every year. This is easy to understand, but eliminates the "hey lets play a mach"-matches. And activity is shown directly in the point (if you lose 1 point, draw 2, win 3) - inactivy is rewarded with zero points.
So my point is. What do we want with teamscore? I've outlined two extremes. The solution is probably somewhat in-between. But where? Im not sure what direction people feels but the suggestions I've seen seems to suggest that people want both. Which is hard to get