Rule change for planned substitutions

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Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Bullet Catcher » Mon May 02, 2011 6:52 am

The members of team Ice propose the following two new rules for planned substitutions.
  1. If a team enters a match with the intention of substituting players then they must make this known, and the actual players to be used as substitutes must be agreed upon by both teams, before the match begins.
  2. A planned substitute may enter the battlefield only when the game is paused and must commence play from the position of the departing player.
We offer the following observations in support of these new rules.
  1. A planned substitution is different from an emergency one.
  2. At the start of a game players are agreed upon before play. So for both teams entering a match the same respect and agreement should be made for any substitutions.
  3. Pausing the game while a substitution occurs helps prevent unfairness or bias, especially in close matches, to the current players on the battlefield. Therefore no team is advantaged or disadvantaged by the new player popping up in a random location.
  4. Players from different continents lag at different rates, leading to an imbalance to the lag difference between all players. During the course of the game players get used to each other's lag difference, and introducing a new player can upset that balance.
  5. Larger teams have an advantage over smaller teams both in being able to provide a sub at the time of a match and in the level of skill another player may bring to the match.
We hope these proposed rules will be given adopted by the GU League after careful consideration.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by macsforme » Mon May 02, 2011 7:22 am

I agree that there is an issue with substituting in a player who might not be an agreeable opponent for the other team. Since matches happen only upon the agreement between two teams, this leaves the issue of what is supposed to happen when a team substitutes in a player that the other team is unwilling to match. I have had this happen to myself, and otherwise seen it happen, on numerous occasions (often when a player with much higher lag is substituted in for one with less).

This is primarily the issue I see this rule helping correct. I don't see a huge issue with players popping up unexpectedly after a substitution, since it always involves a self-kill, and the resulting spawn position is randomly chosen by the server. I don't see really how this can be considered "unfair" or could possibly benefit the substituting team.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Grans Remedy » Mon May 02, 2011 7:49 am

Constitution wrote:the resulting spawn position is randomly chosen by the server. I don't see really how this can be considered "unfair" or could possibly benefit the substituting team.
Sometimes those random positions help one team while disadvantaging the other, and that's all we meant by that.

For example spawning in a position for an easy kill, or in a spot where its easy to prevent a cap. Yes its rare, but it does happen. The reverse is also true, spawning on the other side of the map from where the departing player was (assuming they were in all the action) is a disadvantage, as the opposing team have time to rally.

If the sub takes up the position the departing player is in (before they leave preferably) then neither team should feel disadvantaged by the position the sub takes.
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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by blinky » Mon May 02, 2011 2:43 pm

make everything complicated why don't you :P

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Frank The Tank » Mon May 02, 2011 10:56 pm

Nothing complicated Chris, same as asking ..."who is matching..", ....."agree no subs". Don't think one could make it any simpler.

All about giving the players who are playing simple respect, & consideration, they agreed at the start of the match who they were playing so allow them the same courtesy if alternate players which to sub.

Think about when the match is 2 vs 2 if two other players come along one from each team, they are respectful of those already in the match and ask if they can enter.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by kierra » Wed May 04, 2011 1:05 am

Clarifying this before the match starts, rather than in mid match, surely makes sense if this is an important issue for the players involved. Don't see any problem with being upfront about things. Sure beats arguing mid match :)
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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Zac » Sun May 08, 2011 12:02 am

i also want to bring to light some circumstances of unplanned substitutions. i dont think its fair to refuse a player entry to a match, and then allow a different player in with the reason "i dont match this player" especially if the reason is lag, and they just happen to be playing WITH a lagger.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by macsforme » Sun May 08, 2011 7:34 am

Why is this unfair, Zac? As far as I can remember, we have always respected players' rights to choose not to match certain individuals. When a substitution happens, I don't think an opponent should be forced into a match situation they are not agreeable to.

I don't see an abuse problem with this at all... it's not as if players are refusing to match half the league or anything like that. It has primarily been limited to a few players who decide not to match vs several other players for reasons of their own.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Mon May 09, 2011 4:51 pm

I think it would be a good addition to the rules, but impossible to police.
It would not be possible to differentiate between planned substitutions and planned "emergency" subs.

The rules are there to provide a framework for good conduct, but they shouldn't control everything.
Players are expected "on their honour" do behave correctly, like not moving during a pause etc.
I would suggest we clarify the situation by adding it as an example of expected behaviour rather than formalising it as a rule.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Frank The Tank » Mon May 09, 2011 9:36 pm

Further to FiringSquad's comments, here is a rule already written

"when a player substitutes another player.
In that case the player is allowed to take in the position of the player he is substituting."

Haven't seen that used very often, the new player generally goes in randomly.
Agree it would be nice to leave it to the discretion of those playing, however when your playing all some one has to say is
...."but it's not in the rules..."
No one is compelled to honour it.

There is another existing rule
"It is also allowed to change the team lineup during a game either by substitution or by changing the number of players (e.g. by changing a 2vs2 into a 3vs3). Adding players requires consensus with all participating players."

That is the point our team is making here there is no consensus. There is a consensus for everything else, so why not substitutions.
It would be no more difficult to manage than pre -existing rules. We have started asking and reaching agreement in our matches before we start an offi, however as my playing partner pointed out they are under no obligation to comply during the match.
So far we have not encountered any problems, but we are relying on their integrity.

If this is, as Kierra points out, managed at the start of the match even for emergency subs there can be no dispute later. All participates know from the get go what may happen and a consensus from ALL PLAYERS has been reached.

Should something untoward happen like a computer or power failure then other pre-existing rules kick-in and the match can be postponed.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Tue May 10, 2011 12:43 pm

Adding players requires consensus with all participating players.
Substituting involves removing a player and adding a player, so it's already catered for in the rules.
If a new player enters the match, even as a sub, then there needs to be consensus.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Frank The Tank » Wed May 11, 2011 6:05 am

I agree with you FiringSquad, but to avoid the inevitable argument where by some would disagree with you, citing the context of the sentence is referring to additional players with the example given of 2v2 to 3v3, and not replacements which have added no players to the match. Yes it could be argued all day long both ways, so lets avoid that.
If we add the words and rewrite the sentence so it is crystal clear. Up until now I would suggest most players if not all have interpreted it as adding players to the battlefield.

So the amended sentence would read
"Adding or substituting requires consensus with all participating players"

Would our team be able to request this rule clarification as a minimum?

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Wed May 11, 2011 11:40 am

I'll suggest it in the Admin forum and get someone who has rights to make the change.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Wed May 11, 2011 11:53 am

I've suggested the change in the Admin forum.
I'll keep you informed of the decision.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Mopar Madness » Wed May 11, 2011 3:56 pm

just my opinion on this:
I've been in GU quite a while and I've seen a couple teams using underhanded tactics to trick other teams into matches they otherwise wouldn't have agreed to match. These cases are few and far between though. I think its pretty much been an unspoken rule that planned subs should be agreed to before the match starts. As for the 2nd part to your suggestion, the part about the player must start where the old tank was, I think that part definitely can be omitted. Standard procedure for joining a match in progress is generally to self-kill unless you, your team, or your opponents say they want you back at the old spot.

There are a ton of unspoken "rules" in GU, and if they were all written down and paid close, strict attention to, the game would be absolutely no fun. I think this can be classified as one of those rules. BTW, there's no rule about what to do if a member of an enemy team breaks into your house and holds a gun to your head to make you lose a match verse their team, maybe we should look into adding a rule for what to do in case of that happening next. :)

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Grans Remedy » Thu May 12, 2011 8:01 am

Or perhaps a rule about what to do if a GU member uses a non-sequitur, or other logical fallacy, to support their position on the forums :wink:

It is our submission that the "standard practices" and "unspoken rules" being discussed here are great examples of where there ought to be explicit rules, because they are not working for us (we have had specific instances where they caused us grief during a match).
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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by blast » Thu May 12, 2011 9:27 am

A change was made last night: http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=13226
Player substitution

It is also allowed to change the team lineup during a game either by substitution or by changing the number of players (e.g. by changing a 2vs2 into a 3vs3). Adding or substituting players requires consensus with all participating players.
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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by red-der » Thu May 12, 2011 11:58 am

To avoid possible problems, I ask for clarification in a special case (created by updating the rules):
Q: We started a match 2v2, and someone had to leave, what happens now?
A: Preferably, the match will be paused, and a substitute can be found. If not, both teams should agree to either: cancel the match or continue the match at another time. If both teams do not agree to this, then one of two things must happen:
1) If the leading team has lost a player, the match is simply cancelled.
2) If the trailing team lost the player, it is a forfeit, and the score at the time of losing the player is entered.
Based on the now updated substitution-rule, this allows the leading team to reject any available sub and enter it as a win.

Possible solution:
If the wining team rejects possible subs, it can not enter it as a win; the match has to be canceled or continued at another time.
Last edited by red-der on Thu May 12, 2011 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Thu May 12, 2011 12:21 pm

Well the rule-change is made. Thanks blast.

Regarding what happens re cancelling/forfeiting/postponing, since matches are entered by Refs, I think it's OK to let the Ref decide in each case.
If it's 6-0 with five minutes to go, then recording a win is the appropriate response.
If there is a dispute, then the replay can be viewed and the results can be altered. After all, that's what the Refs and admins are for.
The rules need to be simple. If we try to cover every case then nobody will bother to read them, especially those who's first language is not English.
What's important is the spirit of the law and in the end that's what's applied even if it does not directly agree with the written rules.

One example was where team scores were artificially boosted by some good players moving over to a weak team to bring up their score before switching back and defeating them for more points.
There was no rule for that, but a decision was made to remove the results and a warning was given.

If there is a situation where someone is using a loophole to their advantage, then just let the Admins know and it will be dealt with. It may take a little while, and I apologise for that, but it will be dealt with.
The Admins always do their best to be fair, and it can take some time to gather all the evidence and get a consensus.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by macsforme » Thu May 12, 2011 10:50 pm

red-der wrote:To avoid possible problems, I ask for clarification in a special case (created by updating the rules):

Based on the now updated substitution-rule, this allows the leading team to reject any available sub and enter it as a win.

Possible solution:
If the wining team rejects possible subs, it can not enter it as a win; the match has to be canceled or continued at another time.
Agreed... seems like a good solution to that potential problem.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Mopar Madness » Thu May 12, 2011 11:23 pm

what if the losing team rejects winning sub, winning team forced to cancel match when it was reasonably, but not undoubtedly a victory? The more rules you throw in, the more cracks and holes you throw in as well. And here's a question for you, if this was intended for planned subs, why do people make planned substitutions? To have a better chance of winning. Why would any losing team accept a planned sub then by these rules? Planned subs are few and far between and unless your FF playing match #5000 and trying to get the whole team play time, pretty much the sub will only be to help you win. Maybe this should be the rule: "If you accept to match a team, you accept to match any player combination that team can put on the field unless pre-specified before starting the match."

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Fri May 13, 2011 1:30 am

Planned subs were used regularly when training new members.
New members played first 15 mins with experienced player giving them advice in PM.
Then experienced player plays last 15 mins and new player learns by watching advice put into practice.
This was usually announced before beginning the match.
Of course, that was when teams were bigger and the league was more active.

I still think leaving the rules as stated (with the current amendment), and letting the Ref apply it is the best way to go.
For instance imagine team A (players x & y) match Team B (players a, b & c). Team A says they'll match so long as only a&b play.
Midway through match player b has to leave. In that case it's right for team A to cancel/postpone the match or even record a win if they were winning. It's as if player c was not there, since that was the agreed terms of matching.
For every rule, there will be a scenario that will need clarification.
Leave the rules simple and let the Ref apply the spirit of the law in accordance with the situation.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by Frank The Tank » Fri May 13, 2011 4:22 am

It is a wonderful idea FS to think a ref is at the each match. But when the heat is on and there are a lot of people in obs lets say everyone has an opinion. That's fine but they aren't the ones under pressure in the battlefield. So lets assume in most scenarios now there are no refs but people who are happy to report the score and whom do not wish to be seen to be taking favour with one team or the other. Keeping it simple and keeping everyones opinion out of the match keeps the temperature level down.

Now the rule has been clarified requiring consensus, and the emergency scenario updated, there does remain the "planned substitution" to enhance.
As this clearly now requires all player consensus, Shouldn't we consider updating "planned substitutions" and best to have this in the preamble only, it need not be a rule but we should acknowledge it's existence.
Something like

"If a team wishes to enter a match with the intention of substituting players then it would be appreciated if teams reached a consensus prior to the match beginning allowing the match to flow with as little disruption as possible. The planned substitute may enter when the game is either paused or after a cap"

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by macsforme » Fri May 13, 2011 10:17 am

Mopar Madness wrote:what if the losing team rejects winning sub, winning team forced to cancel match when it was reasonably, but not undoubtedly a victory? The more rules you throw in, the more cracks and holes you throw in as well. And here's a question for you, if this was intended for planned subs, why do people make planned substitutions? To have a better chance of winning. Why would any losing team accept a planned sub then by these rules? Planned subs are few and far between and unless your FF playing match #5000 and trying to get the whole team play time, pretty much the sub will only be to help you win. Maybe this should be the rule: "If you accept to match a team, you accept to match any player combination that team can put on the field unless pre-specified before starting the match."
If a losing team declines the winning team's substitution and declines to postpone, it is no different than the way the situation was before, where the match is simply cancelled. The only difference now is that the losing team is not forced to accept an available substitution that the winning team may have.

Generally I think players just want to finish matches whenever that is possible. In a few distinct cases, some players don't want to match vs. certain others. That is what this new rule attempts to honor. Aside from that, I don't see any significant disruption to the way things happen now.

People talk all the time about how the rules need to be fixed and ask why it is so hard... this is why. Nobody can come to an agreement on what they should be.

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Re: Rule change for planned substitutions

Post by FiringSquad » Mon May 16, 2011 1:21 pm

Frank The Tank wrote:It is a wonderful idea FS to think a ref is at the each match.
That's why matches are recorded. If there's a dispute, then the logs/recording will be checked.
So yes, there is a ref at every match, just not in real-time.

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