Riker's future

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kierra
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Riker's future

Post by kierra » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:14 pm

In talking to some euro players, it seems that there has been dissatisfaction towards big events like rikers & chesval. Since long time, skilled euro players are no longer active (dexter, Krisfeidt), some currently active, skilled euro players don't want to participate in an event that they feel they will lose. Seems that NA does a better job getting oldies to play
a gu player wrote:the thing is, for rikers NA can recruit all the best pro players and Europe can't.
Player numbers & interest are down, and as a result, the participation in last rikers was just enough to make the game happen. NA barely won and I had to play 10 min which tells you how desperate NA was :)

What do we do? Do we continue to focus on the glory days of Rikers and do away with an event because some skilled players no longer play. What about those left?
kajo wrote:i don't play it to win tbh, otherwise i'd get frustrated after every riker/chesval
Anyway, Rikers was designed for player event. While gu admins facilitate the event, I believe it's future should be decided by the players.
That said, we admins wait to hear from the players for their input on the future of Rikers.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by Snake12534 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:25 pm

Of course Riker Cup can still happen.

Winning is not the issue. Activity is the issue.

If those EURO oldies don't want to play because they always lose, it's their choice. Don't let them ruin the fun for those who are still left.

Grab 10 good NA players. Grab 10 good EU players. Choose a date and time and let the Rikers begin.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by dauphin » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:37 pm

There is no fun in playing matches you already know you will lose, no matter what some players can say. I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic. As kierra said, Europeans oldies are no longer active whereas a few from NA still play or comes back for the events.

I heard that Rikers cup was an event in which the 10 best players from each continents fight. Looking at the last Rikers, I don't think it should be called Rikers anymore. And if you want to call it Rikers, I'd like to ask you that question : where were the 10 best players from each continent?

The last time, some players and I played Rikers because there were not enough players to pick from Europe. If NA was desperate, I think that Europeans were about to jump off the cliff (at least, I am).

I heard Rikers was a kind of tradition. And traditions change, evolve. Is it possible to turn Rikers into another kind of event?
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Re: Riker's future

Post by hj » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:44 pm

Well, based on allllll of the responses I've gotten about who wants to be a captain (/sarcasm) and what I've heard from quite a few players, it seems there isn't much interest to play in this Riker Cup. I can understand some discouragement from it ending the same way each of the last ~4 years. So, as a player, I'd like to propose an alternative plan:

There would be, like the Riker Cup, a best-of-3, winner-take-all 10v10 match. However, the teams wouldn't be based on region. Whoever wants to play in these matches can sign up, whether they're from North America, Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, or wherever, and whether they are active or haven't played in years.

Here comes the fun part: we go all fantasy football draft (don't worry if you don't know what this means) on this thing. There would be 2 team captains and we can host a live draft on a replay server or somewhere where the captains draft their players in order 1 by 1 from the sign-up pool until each team has 14 players (starters + alternates). We can make each captain be 'on the clock' for 45 seconds max to make his or her selection. Once the teams are formed, we can have the best-of-3 matches a week or two later.

The two captains should probably be of similar caliber, so teams don't start off uneven, and they should be active enough to recognize the players and their respective value. Other than that, I have no idea how to decide on 2 out of the whole league.

One major advantage of this is it'd be extremely competitive, something that people think the Riker Cup hasn't been in a while), as it'd theoretically be even teams.
One disadvantage is it takes out the fight-for-your-continent pride behind the match (but how much pride is there in Europe trying to defend Lebanon anyway :p )

As for the name, I'm partial to The GU League All-Star Game, but that's not that important.

Thoughts?
Last edited by hj on Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Riker's future

Post by Snake12534 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:50 pm

Araquiel wrote:There is no fun in playing matches you already know you will lose, no matter what some players can say. I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic.
You are.
Araquiel wrote: As kierra said, Europeans oldies are no longer active whereas a few from NA still play or comes back for the events.
The same goes for NA and the entirety of BZFlag. Not all NA oldies come back.
Araquiel wrote:I heard that Rikers cup was an event in which the 10 best players from each continents fight. Looking at the last Rikers, I don't think it should be called Rikers anymore. And if you want to call it Rikers, I'd like to ask you that question : where were the 10 best players from each continent?
Why can't it be call Rikers? It's 10 good NA players vs 10 good EU players. No one can determine who is, "the best." It's all relative. Admins & players (captains) observe whose good. Who is good at offense, defense, flags? They pick them. There's no formula for choosing the best of the best. If someone the captain chooses doesn't want to play, then they don't want to play. The captain chooses someone else.
Araquiel wrote:The last time, some players and I played Rikers because there were not enough players to pick from Europe. If NA was desperate, I think that Europeans were about to jump off the cliff (at least, I am).
You can choose to jump off a cliff if you wanted to. You could decline playing if you didn't want to lose. I play fun matches all the time and I don't care about losing. Activity is the key at this point in BZFlag. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Araquiel wrote:
I heard Rikers was a kind of tradition. And traditions change, evolve. Is it possible to turn Rikers into another kind of event?
Traditions do change, but then it wouldn't be called a tradition anymore. There's no point in turning Rikers in to a different event. You can always host a new event.
Last edited by Snake12534 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by dauphin » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:53 pm

Snake12534 wrote:
If those EURO oldies don't want to play because they always lose, it's their choice. Don't let them ruin the fun for those who are still left.

Grab 10 good NA players. Grab 10 good EU players. Choose a date and time and let the Rikers begin.
"If those EURO oldies don't want to play because they always lose, it's their choice."

You must have misunderstood something here. Old Europeans do not play because they "always lose". They do not play because they quit. Simple as that. Shall I point out that when the old Europeans were playing, they didn't lose all the matches ?

"Don't let them ruin the fun for those who are still left."

It's hard to have fun when you get crushed during 30 minutes and that, for 3 matches. As far as I know/remember/heard not many Europeans "had fun" during these events, not anymore.

"Grab 10 good NA players. Grab 10 good EU players. Choose a date and time and let the Rikers begin."

Sure. It's true that for the last Rikers, captains from each continent didn't try their best to gather the "10 good players". Shall I remind you too that, you do not "grab" players like you would grab fruits? Dude, really, you have been away for too long I think. You should pop in bzflag someday and have a look about the players left.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by hj » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:56 pm

Ara expressed her opinion and her point of view - Snake, respect that. As for her argument that old europeans don't come back as much as old NAs, that's true. Last summer, NA had plasma kaz, slime, r3, ken, leg, aim while euro had janis for one match, asme, and not sure who else in terms of "older" players.
Last edited by hj on Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by Snake12534 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:57 pm

Araquiel wrote: Sure. It's true that for the last Rikers, captains from each continent didn't try their best to gather the "10 good players". Shall I remind you too that, you do not "grab" players like you would grab fruits? Dude, really, you have been away for too long I think. You should pop in bzflag someday and have a look about the players left.
I visit BZFlag frequently and I understand how inactive it is. That is why I proposed a proposal for one league about commitment and dedication. It's about *DEDICATED* players who are *DEDICATED* to keeping the leagues alive. I know it's a game, but if someone wanted activity, they need to do something about it and not complain. They don't even have to be good. Just pick 10 players from each side. Everyone who is left anyways is good.
hj wrote:I'm gonna cut off this potential internet argument here. Ara expressed her opinion and her point of view - Snake, respect that. As for her argument that old europeans don't come back as much as old NAs, that's true. Last summer, NA had plasma kaz, slime, r3, ken, leg, aim while euro had janis for one match, asme, and not sure who else in terms of "older" players.
I respect everybody's perspective and their point of view.
kierra wrote: Anyway, Rikers was designed for player event. While gu admins facilitate the event, I believe it's future should be decided by the players.
That said, we admins wait to hear from the players for their input on the future of Rikers.
and this is my input.

My opinions have no value on araquiel unless she decides it will. The same goes for everyone else.
hj wrote:Well, based on allllll of the responses I've gotten about who wants to be a captain (/sarcasm) and what I've heard from quite a few players, it seems there isn't much interest to play in this Riker Cup. I can understand some discouragement from it ending the same way each of the last 4 years or so. So, as a player, I'd like to propose an alternative plan:

There would be, like the Riker Cup, a best-of-3, winner-take-all 10v10 match. However, the teams wouldn't be based on region. Whoever wants to play in these matches can sign up, whether they're from North America, Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, or wherever, and whether they are active or haven't played in years.

Here comes the fun part: we go all fantasy football draft (don't worry if you don't know what this means) on this thing. There would be 2 team captains and we can host a live draft on a replay server or somewhere where the captains draft their players in order 1 by 1 from the sign-up pool until each team has 14 players (starters + alternates). We can make each captain be 'on the clock' for 45 seconds max or so to make their selection. Once the teams are formed, we can have the best-of-3 matches a week or two later.

The two captains should probably be of similar caliber, so teams don't start off uneven, and they should be active enough to recognize the players/how good each one is. Other than that, I have no idea how to decide on 2 out of the whole league.

One major advantage of this is it'd be extremely competitive, something that people think the Riker Cup hasn't been in a while), as it'd theoretically be even teams.
One disadvantage is it takes out the fight-for-your-continent pride behind the match (but how much pride is there in Europe trying to defend Lebanon anyway :p )

As for the name, I'm partial to The GU League All-Star Game, but that's not that important.

Thoughts?
It sounds like a great idea, but it's contrary to the Riker Cup "continent pride" tradition. Regardless, this would be something that I think would be great for the community for those who are still left.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by dauphin » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:03 pm

hj, your idea is pure genius. I fully support it.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by Yvaika » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:02 pm

hj wrote:Well, based on allllll of the responses I've gotten about who wants to be a captain (/sarcasm) and what I've heard from quite a few players, it seems there isn't much interest to play in this Riker Cup. I can understand some discouragement from it ending the same way each of the last 4 years or so. So, as a player, I'd like to propose an alternative plan:

There would be, like the Riker Cup, a best-of-3, winner-take-all 10v10 match. However, the teams wouldn't be based on region. Whoever wants to play in these matches can sign up, whether they're from North America, Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, or wherever, and whether they are active or haven't played in years.

Here comes the fun part: we go all fantasy football draft (don't worry if you don't know what this means) on this thing. There would be 2 team captains and we can host a live draft on a replay server or somewhere where the captains draft their players in order 1 by 1 from the sign-up pool until each team has 14 players (starters + alternates). We can make each captain be 'on the clock' for 45 seconds max or so to make their selection. Once the teams are formed, we can have the best-of-3 matches a week or two later.
Yup.

As for picking captains, I don't see why it shouldn't be put up to a vote. Anyone interested signs up and everyone (including those who signed up) votes for two candidates. The top two candidates captain that event and are excluded from signing up for the succeeding event, however many weeks/months later. The only issue I could see with this is having to deal with tied outcomes, seeing as we may not have enough league members voting in order to keep an imbalance among, say, the top 3-4 candidates. Feedback please. :)

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Re: Riker's future

Post by Spawnferkel » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:00 am

I think hj´s idea is brilliant. :)

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Re: Riker's future

Post by -roo » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:29 am

Although hj is a noob I support his idea.

P.S. Lebanon > Europe
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Re: Riker's future

Post by Shuist » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:38 am

I personally like this idea of hj.
It would mean that there would be a bigger variety in the players and more chance on Rikers happening. This also means that players who normally wouldn't get chosen, would have a bigger chance of getting chosen, if they wanted to.
I also think this would create more even teams. Touching on Araquiel's point, I believe there is a fine line between a nice challenge and a complete spanking.
I would like to see this in action.

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Re: Riker's future

Post by macsforme » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:45 am

The idea of a new kind of event like hrj described does sound appealing. I would hate to miss out on a traditional Riker Cup, but they have seemed a little lopsided in participation lately.

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Re: Riker's future

Post by osta » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:45 am

Well, i never played in Rikers, but I'd say it was similar with Chesval. Especially that there were a significant difference between how Euro and NA team were created. My goal was always to somehow reward current active players, by nominating 'dedicated' active league player for a captain and also have as many as possible active ducati players in game. NA team, however, was created mostly based on 'oldies', who just showed on ducati twice a year for special events.
I also preferred to have different captains every time, so more people could feel involved, but that wasn't easy on the other hand, because those new players often had a problem with organizing and guiding a team.

This causes many problems, with uneven matches, disappointments between players and, as effect, lack of interest in such event.
There was some discussion in the past about it, about more open formula for Chesval, but more conservative option prevailed.

I like the hj's idea, it will be more difficult to keep in order (45 seconds will not be enough, I expect more like 5-10 minutes), will cause more lag issues, but the final impact will be better.

Anyway, making Chesval / Rikers with oldies has no real positive impact on activity, pool of active players also isn't big and attractive, so basically, that could be just an scheduled fm for whoever can show ;>

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Re: Riker's future

Post by possum jenkins » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:17 pm

Isn't hj's idea similar to The Silly Cup?

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Re: Riker's future

Post by hj » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:46 pm

possum jenkins wrote:Isn't hj's idea similar to The Silly Cup?
I'm not too familiar with The Silly Cup, but my understanding is it was catered more towards newer players and those who wouldn't be on the rosters for a Riker/Chesval event.

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Re: Riker's future

Post by Snake12534 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:41 pm

possum jenkins wrote:Isn't hj's idea similar to The Silly Cup?
Yes, it's very familiar to the Silly Cup except it's now two teams and not randomized. Both sign-up methods are the same.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by hj » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:55 pm

Honestly, the sign-up thing can be a lot easier; can make a little doc and people can say either in person or online and just consolidate the two lists.

I'm more interested in seeing two things for this event:

1. Is this an idea people would be interested in?
2. If so, should it replace Rikers (at least for this summer) or should we have both?

My only qualm about having both is that you'd probably only get the best for one of them and not both, which would make the other either lopsided or not as hype
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Re: Riker's future

Post by kajo » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:45 pm

fully supporting hj's idea

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Re: Riker's future

Post by dauphin » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:15 pm

It should replace Rikers Cup.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by miro » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:29 pm

I think its time for a change and give up traditions, a merged league and a new event could bring some fresh air in this dying game ... It has already been said in this thread why its pointless for riker cup to happen anymore , expecially for europe, every year it becomes worse...so i vote to replace it

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Re: Riker's future

Post by hj » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:27 am

Alright, so this is really happening. Go to https://www.guleague.org/News/ for details/sign-up link.
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Re: Riker's future

Post by jh^ » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:11 pm

Late reply but yes all star cup is a good idea. I suggest same approach for chesval cup.

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Re: Riker's future

Post by kierra » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:47 pm

jh^ wrote:Late reply but yes all star cup is a good idea. I suggest same approach for chesval cup.
Yes, jh^....already working on that. Aiming for September actually.
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