New Weapon = EMP (Electro-magnetic Pulse)

jbeek · Post by **jbeek** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:32 am

It could be like the Shockwave but only 3x's bigger.

It could disable every tank in the range for three seconds.

I would guess that it would be a "suicide" weapon? But it would be nice to "freeze" those who like to camp with GMs.

What do you all think?

justy

EvilChickenNugget · Post by **EvilChickenNugget** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:44 am

I could see it as a one-shot flag. Use it once and it drops. In that case it wouldn't be necessary for it to be a suicide flag.

I like it

creeperz · Post by **creeperz** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:33 am

i dotn know... i think it might be pretty annoying. i mean, if they were scarce it might be pretty cool... sounds pretty cool though

toaster · Post by **toaster** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:36 pm

a 3 second freeze is not much. you'd have to be close to the camper to begin with. often as not, you probably wouldn't get close, because when someone camps, if you go after them, everyone else shoots at your backside.

Rebel Chik0rita · Post by **Rebel Chik0rita** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:33 pm

instead of freezing tanks (might slow down gameplay) , maybe have all the tanks caught in an EMP wave drop whatever flags they are carrying (super , bad , or team flags) . including the tank who used the EMP , in that way it will be a one-use only flag .

like a localize flag reset ;)
could be useful too , for dislodging any unused flags that may be stuck or otherwise unreachable , and bring them back into gameplay .

tanks not carrying any flags won't be affected , or could be "frozen" for 3 seconds .

you could also make some neat special visual and sound effects for the EMP flag . such as lightning bolts or a spark storm ...

too much special graphic effects could cause more lag , so maybe it could be a more graphically subtle EarthQuake (EQ) flag , that does the same thing (drops flags an freezes tanks) where players only hear an earthquake sound , experience a visual "shaking" on their mainscreen , an perhaps a temporary radar blackout too .
it would also be a one-use only flag , which affects the tank using it(epicenter) an all those tanks caught in the focal zone(up to 3x larger than the usual SW zone =)

i think players out in California can relate to this flag ;)

Death Barrel · Post by **Death Barrel** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:42 pm

i still say the "BAAH" flag is more reasonible, you know, the Big Ass Attached Hammer Flag, when you come near it if kills you til you die with a big ass Attached Hammer!!

sid6.7 · Post by **sid6.7** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:45 pm

hmmm i might be confused but isnt this already the
super bullet weapon? its also called a rail gun? it
was in the movie with arnold schwartzneager and
vanessa williams? it was caled a emp rifle? could shoot
thru walls and such did not have a real bullet like a
firearm so could not be traced or detected..

wondering...

Rebel Chik0rita · Post by **Rebel Chik0rita** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:57 pm

no its not a bullet or projectile type weapon , its more like a shockwave type weapon . at least that's my impression of what an EMP is =P

Homonculus · Post by **Homonculus** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:00 pm

A railgun uses two rails with a capacitor bank across the rails. Projectile enters the rails, kaboom, current passes through projectile and projectile gets accellerated forward. Big, heavy, require a lot of power, but they shoot a heavy projectile very fast...

As for the EMP, it is an electromagnetic tank, and seeing how tanks are metal, this pulse would go straight to grond as soon as it hit someone. It would also hit you when you fired, but since it is useless against metal objects, it wouldn't do anything. In order to damage the tank, it would have to send out enough energy to surrounding objects for them to be vaporized by the electricity flowing through them... Very hard with a shockwave style omindirectional radiator. You would need 100s of GJ to accomplish that

Rebel Chik0rita · Post by **Rebel Chik0rita** » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:26 pm

huh?

o okkay =P

toaster · Post by **toaster** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:00 am

EMP requires a thermonuclear explosion above the atmosphere, or at least where atmospheric density is such to reduce the reaction of the atmosphere in the hydrogen chain reaction. This keeps the wavefront as an electomagnetic/photonic wave (energy) as opposed to suboatomic particulate matter (mass). EMP will not necessarily "fry" or "toast" electronic circuits, but since all circuitry is made up of incredibly tiny wires which can also be considered antennae, the level of energy contained in the pulse can cause unpredictable results. In anything with a computer for a brain, this could force the owner to reboot. (Did you know that Dodge Caravans, since the early '90's, have computers in the transmissions to "learn" how you drive and adjust shifting based on your habits?)

So most computers also have volatile and non-volatile memory which can be effected by EMP. Hence, they can be scrambled by EMP, to a point where they are completely inoperative. Even a reboot would not overwrite NVRAM or ROM.

You don't have to be that close to experience the results of EMP.

RC's idea of dropping flags is a good option, provided (in my opinion, for what that's worth) that the flags don't just land back on top of the tanks. They need to reset and reappear somewhere else. Otherwise, camper just waits 4 seconds for flag to drop back on him/her.

And EMP should have a large range. 1/2 normal shot range.

Homonculus, EMP can effect you with or without shielding. Basically, within the right distance, EMP effects everything. And there's no such thing as a "grounded" tank. There is never in the real world a perfect ground. It is a reference to the ground for the transmission. Earth ground alone can vary in potential by 10 volts in a surprisingly small region. Plus, the EMP is transmitted as a wavefront, so the effective potential voltage is across the wave itself, not from the wave to ground. It's not anything like, for instance, lightning, which is a circuit completion between two regions of dramatically different potential voltages. EMP carries that within the wavefront of the pulse.

And it's not the same as a railgun or a linear accelerator. Homonculus is correct. I prefer the accelerator. The railgun is a modified version. In common, both accelerate masses to fractional light speeds, far above any kind of velocity possible with chemical propellant. A modern tank round could be accelerated to perhaps 5 or 6,000 fps (feet per second). Lightspeed is roughly 1 gfps. Accelerating a mass to 1/2 c (500 mfps) would be incredible. Basically, the laser is the same thing in our game. But the mass would penetrate thick objects where the laser does not.

I vote if we have an EMP flag, the message when you get hit says "Your weapon was toasted by XXXXXXXX's EMP."

Homonculus · Post by **Homonculus** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:26 pm

Try this: Put a radio in a sealed metal box (like the electronics in a tank), and see if it can pic up anything. It won't. The EM waves from the radio transmitter won't be able to pass through the metal, they will be absorbed by it. Same with EMP. EMP is just a pulse of electricity that radiates out from its source. You make an EMP whenever you switch on a lamp or turn on your computer. To make an EMP to fry things, you use a bigger power source and you send it through a coil of wire with a parabolic antenna behind it.

Do a search for EMP on www.4hv.org

I suppose EMP would be an interesting flag, but it is even more unrealistic than jumping tanks

toaster · Post by **toaster** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:05 am

Worked in a research lab a number of years ago. They had a full sized EMP simulator/generator setup, one of the very few in the country. EMP can penetrate a metal shield like you describe. Seen it myself. Watched the results. Tanks aren't proof against it. They are not perfect Faraday cages. What else can I say? Fine for low power stuff, though.

EMP from a lamp switch isn't even really EMP by comparison. It's a flashed low frequency signal (60Hz) with an abysmal slew rate. It's like a slow walk down a long slope compared to leaping out off a sheer cliff. You can't even reach HF ranges with 3rd order harmonics of the switch throw. Up the slew rate by 5 orders of magnitude (0's on the end as you measure in volts per second) and increase the perceived power by 7 or more orders of magnitude, and you start to get close to EMP, well beyond HF, VHF, and in the upper UHF range if not beyond.

I could try to explain how this works, but it requires a great deal of physics to make full sense. In layman's terms, you can make things powerful enough that they overcome normally understood "rules." Not to mention that EMP is not electricity. Lighting is. EMP is wavefront, an EM signal, which is not quite the same as an electrical pulse when you try to draw comparisons across this kind of level.

Post by **Fiberchunks** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:47 am

Of course, you can always harden your electronics against nuclear scintillation and the effects of EMP, but I don't think most of us can afford the necessary measures

However, a good flag to combat the emp could be HD (hardening). Makes you immune.

Peace
Fiber

Death Barrel · Post by **Death Barrel** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:59 pm

what about the BAAH flag??

Homonculus · Post by **Homonculus** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:35 pm

I don't know what world you live in, but radio waves don't propogate through steel

EvilChickenNugget · Post by **EvilChickenNugget** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:51 pm

What is the BAAH flag?

On second thought.. I'm not sure I want to know.

jbeek · Post by **jbeek** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:53 pm

OK. In reality, a Hardened Tank could withstand an EPM.

However, this is a game where tanks can jump. And I think it would be a neat weapon.

Actually, a Freeze weapon sounds fun also. Something that would freeze everyone w/in the area for a few seconds - even those midair!!

EvilChickenNugget · Post by **EvilChickenNugget** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:58 pm

I agree. Some variation on the 'frozen' tank theme would be fun. Doesn't have to be an EMP.

toaster · Post by **toaster** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:57 pm

Homonculus wrote:I don't know what world you live in, but radio waves don't propogate through steel

I live in the real world. Normal radio waves propogate through anything, but most conductive metals will attenuate the signals so much that the amount getting through is nearly impossible to measure. That's if you start with normal radio levels at normally expected power ranges. In that case, the radio wave reaching you is measured in microvolts per meter. In the real world, a strong enough signal can penetrate deeper because the attenuation is only attenuation, not true absorption. EMP waves from nuclear blasts are measured in the 50,000 volt/meter range. That's 10 orders of magnitude higher than things you normally experience.

In the real world, if you start looking for shielded enclosures for military communications equipment, for example, you find steel enclosures that offer "attenuation up to 80db" to quote a company well-respected in the industry. The biggest problem after the depth of the metal itself is the gaps. You probably forgot that tanks have lots of little doors, hatches, and space around the turret ring, a long reception tunnel called a cannon barrel, and a number of other ways for that pulse to enter, all of which are difficult to shield for that kind of pulse level.

If you still think you need to argue with me, go to a serious reference source from the real world, study a bit first: http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pubs/ ... netrat.htm

If you just want to roll eyes at me more, I have two teenagers who are masters at it.

jbeek · Post by **jbeek** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:39 am

Anyway....

If there was a Freeze weapon, should it be omnidirectional or unidirectional?

Or better yet: How about a Landmine? If you get the Landmine flag you can crap out, say, five mines?

And maybe after 20 seconds they self-destruct? (So there isn't a map full of mines?)

Which is cooler - EMP or Mines?

EvilChickenNugget · Post by **EvilChickenNugget** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:27 am

EMP Mines! (Sorry.. Had to say it)

toaster · Post by **toaster** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:25 am

EMP mines! cool idea!

oblomov · Post by **oblomov** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:11 am

Why such an obsession with realism? After all, we have jumping tanks and tanks that fall from very high with no damage ...

toaster · Post by **toaster** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:49 pm

It's not really an obsession with realism. When the EMP flag was proposed, some of us thought it was neat. Someone else said tanks are steel and EMP doesn't bother them, just grounds through them, with no effect, which led to a discussion of the reality of EMP. Just a tangent.

I still think the EMP flag is a neat idea.