Ducati Acceleration Limit

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by hj » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:55 pm

Exuro wrote: Who says every map has to be in favor of players who can react the fastest?
Some maps, like ducati do not. And that is one reason why many like it exactly that way.
Because this was the vision of ducati from the very start - and it continues to be the basis of ducati. With or without the cap, ducati will always be about reaction in the open field. The only thing that changed is there's an upper limit now, which is silly.
click click boom wrote: Everyone tries to make there movements hard to predict but when you have the ability to change directions faster with no acceleration limits that doesn't make it right. You have this ability due to your preferences while some don't. It is a handicap to prevent people like you from changing tank directions 6 times in a second so one can predict where their tank is, by doing this it becomes a level playing field.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. There aren't acceleration limits in most other servers (especially considering that's the default server setting), but you do not complain that these maps are not "right." Can you clarify what ability I have because of my preferences?
click click boom wrote: You are acting as this was a handicap to prevent the great players becoming better, no this is not the case. Your REFLEXES do not change because of acceleration limit. You will still make the move as you wish on a Ducati server but you flinging your mouse 20 times in a second across the screen won't be nearly as effective on Ducati as it is on Hix.
It is exactly the case. It doesn't matter how fast your reflexes are with an acceleration limit - at a certain point, it doesn't affect gameplay because your tank doesn't move as fast as your hand does, which is ridiculous. Where your cursor is on your screen should be directly proportional to how fast your tank is moving. This is by definition not the case with acceleration limits.
Why are you in favor of people exploiting the game more than it is?
The equivalent of your argument is why are you in favor of people having guns if people commit crimes with them. I tailored this analogy specifically to your interests.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by click click boom » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:19 am

I don't understand this line of reasoning. There aren't acceleration limits in most other servers (especially considering that's the default server setting), but you do not complain that these maps are not "right." Can you clarify what ability I have because of my preferences?

Most servers, A: are not competitive play, B: most servers aren't 2 shots no jumping, C: If this is something this is imposed lets make it like most servers jumping 5 shots ducati?
The equivalent of your argument is why are you in favor of people having guns if people commit crimes with them. I tailored this analogy specifically to your interests.
With the rules you want on Ducati will allow exploitation, Why are we comparing guns to BZFlag?, you couldn't answer my question of you allowing the game to be exploited if the acceleration is reversed so you resorted to a lame analogy. It's already being exploited on Hix but its tolerable since their is 3 shots and jumping ( there is a point of escape) So ill give you a lame analogy in return. You reversing the acceleration limit on Ducati is like handing guns to felons telling them to not commit a crime with it and if they do they will be arrested. But since they do not have a license to carry a firearm they should have never accepted the firearm in the first place and that they should be arrested on the spot for accepting the firearm to begin with.

On a second thought, what are the interest and imposing acceleration limits on Hix, is there a way to allow jumping?( meaning changing directions mid air and pryo jumps ) Could a developer chime in on that factor of the game?

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by hj » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:26 am

click click boom wrote: Most servers, A: are not competitive play, B: most servers aren't 2 shots no jumping, C: If this is something this is imposed lets make it like most servers jumping 5 shots ducati?
You would think that competitive play would mean fewer restrictions and allow people to stratify by level of competence. I would expect a non-league server to implement checks to ensure as little hierarchy as possible.
click click boom wrote: With the rules you want on Ducati will allow exploitation, Why are we comparing guns to BZFlag?, you couldn't answer my question of you allowing the game to be exploited if the acceleration is reversed so you resorted to a lame analogy. It's already being exploited on Hix but its tolerable since their is 3 shots and jumping ( there is a point of escape) So ill give you a lame analogy in return. You reversing the acceleration limit on Ducati is like handing guns to felons telling them to not commit a crime with it and if they do they will be arrested. But since they do not have a license to carry a firearm they should have never accepted the firearm in the first place and that they should be arrested on the spot for accepting the firearm to begin with.
Your analogy is incorrect because you're comparing all ducati players to felons. The correct analogy would be to citizens, not felons, which brings us back to my analogy.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by quantum dot » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:33 am

I think sox is making good points, specially in his first post. I never liked mouse accel. over-clocking so to speak in ducati maps because tanks are more prone to glitch and show apparent shoots through. For 10 years DUC style has become more about anticipating moves than accelerating your mouse and I would like it to stay like that. My main point in favour of keeping settings as they are is that that is what DUC is all about. Removing the accel. limit now would made DUC a different game. Specially if, as some do, you combine it with low fps.

Why GU did not incorporated accel. limits? Exactly for the same reason I am favouring leaving DUC settings alone. We tested accel limits in GU and the game play was so different that we decided it was better to leave it as it was. Accel limits changed the whole concept of jumping and other usual GU tricks, the essence of GU for most players really. so we decided to leave it alone.

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by Monster » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:35 am

hj wrote: Where your cursor is on your screen should be directly proportional to how fast your tank is moving. This is by definition not the case with acceleration limits.
In my oppinion it is not quite as easy as that.
The problem with this game is that movement and aim are bound to the same control.
In most FPSs the player's movements are controlled with the keyboard and the aim is controlled by the mouse. While aim has no restricitions on acceleration and speed, movement is afaik always limited in both ways to ensure that all players present an equal target. If the movement of the target depends on acceleration and players are able to use different acceleration speeds ppl are likely to abuse that fact and the focus of besaid game shifts from anticipating the movement of the target and moving the cursor accordingly, to "prefireing" possible spots.
Of course with BZF it is quite different as dodging is a huge part of the game. Still Im in favor of more predictability and less twitchy dodging. To me it is more fun to predict and hit a jump shot or time a pyra shot than shooting bullets around apileptic tanks.
I am not saying that I want an acceleration limit (as I said I did not even notice the difference) but I would like to see more limitations on things that can be abused such as high/low fps and so on. If I am wrong and such advantageous settings do not even exist, please correct me as I do not know much about that stuff.

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by The Red Baron » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:40 am

quantum dot wrote:Why GU did not incorporated accel. limits? Exactly for the same reason I am favouring leaving DUC settings alone. We tested accel limits in GU and the game play was so different that we decided it was better to leave it as it was. Accel limits changed the whole concept of jumping and other usual GU tricks, the essence of GU for most players really. so we decided to leave it alone.

qd
Accel limits broke jumping, all quick reactionary movements combined with jumping, ended up with you jumping straight into the air. This especially broke keyboard players.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by click click boom » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:45 am

The Red Baron wrote:
quantum dot wrote:Why GU did not incorporated accel. limits? Exactly for the same reason I am favouring leaving DUC settings alone. We tested accel limits in GU and the game play was so different that we decided it was better to leave it as it was. Accel limits changed the whole concept of jumping and other usual GU tricks, the essence of GU for most players really. so we decided to leave it alone.

qd
Accel limits broke jumping, all quick reactionary movements combined with jumping, ended up with you jumping straight into the air. This especially broke keyboard players.
I noted this in my previous post.

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by The Red Baron » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:55 am

click click boom wrote:
The Red Baron wrote:Strip it out for old time's sake. Lag back then was the underlying problem and the accel limit was a band-aid to the "mouse" problem exacerbated by a physics engine that had no mass. VPS's are cheap these days.

It wasn't custom or fancy hardware, This was the mouse I used back in my hey-day with the OEM driver.
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And this is why the playing field was even 15 years ago until the mouse world evolved. TRB you had a nice mouse, 15 years ago i was using a trackball so you were definitely ahead of the curve there :), oh and like once a week it required cleaning from the gunk that built up in it.
Your glasses are more rosy tinted than mine, as the public consensus was anything but a level playing field. And you're incorrect about the mice being the problem. The problem 12 years ago, was as, I pointed out was lag coupled with client side shot detection. Trust me, I was there, and was one of the primary points of blame for the whole "ME" issue (mouse enhancement).

I really don't want to re-hash old arguments, bad memories or recap all the technical arguments. My vote is for old-times sake (which is really a terrible justification for anything), with the added advice of, play on low lag servers. VPS's are cheap, should be enough servers around this time.

A mouse config that allows you to change 20 directions in a second will not magically make you better or invincible. You'll have not moved too far from your starting location (given low lag & a TCP-Connection), and a properly spaced, well aimed 2 shot will end you. I was there when people tried that, IMO its effect at best, was psychological.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:00 am

The thing is that skill is important.
It's possible that their will be people who complain all the time due to an acceleration limit.
The thing is that there is lag and other factors to consider and people will use those things to an advantage.
I do not care weather people use things like that to make themselves a better player, but I'm against ANY cheats.
Here's an example of the same line of thinking relating to an acceleration limit.

lets start making sure that people have the same type of internet connection and that they can't buy a gaming keyboard and mouse.
also we can't have people making a high end computer, otherwise they'll have an advantage over people with a lower end computer.
and lets make sure that we can't use a server to play, since it can use a lot of RAM to play bzflag and that makes it that it runs faster then others computers.

Lets remove the acceleration limit and improve our skill instead of having a discussion about an acceleration limit.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by click click boom » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:02 am

The Red Baron wrote:
click click boom wrote:
The Red Baron wrote:Strip it out for old time's sake. Lag back then was the underlying problem and the accel limit was a band-aid to the "mouse" problem exacerbated by a physics engine that had no mass. VPS's are cheap these days.

It wasn't custom or fancy hardware, This was the mouse I used back in my hey-day with the OEM driver.
And this is why the playing field was even 15 years ago until the mouse world evolved. TRB you had a nice mouse, 15 years ago i was using a trackball so you were definitely ahead of the curve there :), oh and like once a week it required cleaning from the gunk that built up in it.
Your glasses are more rosy tinted than mine, as the public consensus was anything but a level playing field. And you're incorrect about the mice being the problem. The problem 12 years ago, was as, I pointed out was lag coupled with client side shot detection. Trust me, I was there, and was one of the primary points of blame for the whole "ME" issue (mouse enhancement).

I really don't want to re-hash old arguments, bad memories or recap all the technical arguments. My vote is for old-times sake (which is really a terrible justification for anything), with the added advice of, play on low lag servers. VPS's are cheap, should be enough servers around this time.

A mouse config that allows you to change 20 directions in a second will not magically make you better or invincible. You'll have not moved too far from your starting location (given low lag & a TCP-Connection), and a properly spaced, well aimed 2 shot will end you. I was there when people tried that, IMO its effect at best, was psychological.



"Kierra: GU league has thought about this in the past. The reason why they couldn't go forth with it is because of changing directions in mid air in jumps wouldn't work, the pyramid jumps wouldn't work either. This is the sole reason it was not being applied on Gu at the times these discussions took place. Also death barrel wasn't whining about particular mouse drivers for their mouse, he was whining about a mouse driver that worked for all mouses. I forget the name of this program because it's been over 10 years. But the program would jack up the mouse speed, and also the polling rate, not sure what else it did. Keep in mind at the time this was big news because nobody did this and the playing field was even so when people started to look for short cuts it became a big debate, Ducati league felt the best way to get rid of these shorts cuts was by adding acceleration limit. Keep in mind before Ducati implemented this nobody was taking advantage of such preferences. But as the gaming industry revolutionized it became apparent this needed to be handled with accordingly."

TRB resort back to the first page......
By the way, I was there during this great debate too :)

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by allejo » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:27 am

As an unbiased keyboard user, this thread has become a "I will convince <insert player here> that I am right." In order for the LU council to make a fair and unbiased decision, we would like to hear from more players than just the vocal ones that have already been heard loud and clear. Other players may be intimidated from joining this discussion since they'll be overwhelmed or lost in a chain of replies from the players who have already shared their thoughts.

If more players do not voice their opinions, this thread will be locked and the issue will be deferred to a later time due to it being unproductive.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by click click boom » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:09 am

allejo: if this is going to be taken this serious, we should get a running poll going.
hj: change
constitution: keep
styx: change
Yvaika: change
Click click boom: keep
Exuro: keep
Osta: keep
Quantum Dot: keep
The Red Baron: change
Monster: keep
Kierra: not sure where she stands.
Flak 18: change
4 want to change: 7: want to keep
I would like to see more people interject on this as Allejo noted as well, especially some classic Ducati players. Also, the players activity should be brought into consideration. Somebody who wants to rework a change that doesn't bother playing opinions shouldn't be brought in as much as someone who contributes everyday to the game who will actually be playing that style every single day should mean a little bit more.
Last edited by click click boom on Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by The Red Baron » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:11 am

I'm in favor of changing the current setting to no accel, not keeping the current accel
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:12 am

Lets pm all LU users and make an unbiased decision based on the acceleration limit based on the input from LU players.
Also if my opinion is unclear please pm me so I can edit or make a new post to make my position clear.
click click boom wrote:allejo: if this is going to be taken this serious, we should get a running poll going.
hj: change
constitution: keep
styx: change
Yvaika: change
Click click boom: keep
Exuro: keep
Osta: keep
Quantum Dot: keep
The Red Baron: change
Monster: keep
Kierra: not sure where she stands.
Flak 18: change
4 want to change: 7: want to keep
I would like to see more people interject on this as Allejo noted as well, especially some classic Ducati players. Also, the players activity should be brought into consideration. Somebody who wants to rework a change that doesn't bother playing opinions shouldn't be brought in as much as someone who contributes everyday to the game who will actually be playing that style every single day should mean a little bit more.
Also please don't make charts like that since it's impolite. :(
(please note that I'm adding bold to show my point)
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by macsforme » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:19 am

Flak 18 wrote:Lets pm all LU users
No, let's not send out unsolicited and unwelcome bulk messages, please. We have announcements for that.
Flak 18 wrote:Also please don't make charts like that since it's impolite. :(
Huh?

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by Exuro » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:53 am

Why can't we do it right, for once??

# Set a realistic time-frame for this decision (for example 6 months)
# Set up a testserver with acceleration limit off.
# Have a decent amount of funmatches played there (50-100).

Ask only those players who actually played some ducati matches on this testserver and on regular servers whether to change it or not.

:oops: :oops:
And whoever brings the argument that every player's vote should count, I say: No, it should not.
If those players are not willing to invest their time to have a sound basis by playing a few funmatches one can presume they don't care enough and won't play offical matches either.

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by quantum dot » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:39 am

I propose this: Let us put this discussion in the fridge by now (in all senses of the term ;) ) and let us all concentrate in getting LU started and fix the issues that we already might have before messing the field with more complications. The plan was to merge actual DUC and GU not to change the play feeling of DUC, and then merge.

In any case, a vote among players as such might be a way to quantify something but certainly not the amount of support from real players of accel. limits in DUC maps. I prefer more intelligent and educated choices, as the one proposed by Exuro in the previous post for instance. But let us postpone this by now.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by styx » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:28 pm

Exuro wrote:Why can't we do it right, for once??

# Set a realistic time-frame for this decision (for example 6 months)
# Set up a testserver with acceleration limit off.
# Have a decent amount of funmatches played there (50-100).

Ask only those players who actually played some ducati matches on this testserver and on regular servers whether to change it or not.

:oops: :oops:
And whoever brings the argument that every player's vote should count, I say: No, it should not.
If those players are not willing to invest their time to have a sound basis by playing a few funmatches one can presume they don't care enough and won't play offical matches either.
This is good sense, in my opinion. The significance of underlining "playing a few funmatches" does not escape me.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:41 pm

One thing to note is that there are many players who just play HiX.
And lets have an opinion based on what is being said here
Exuro wrote:Why can't we do it right, for once??

# Set a realistic time-frame for this decision (for example 6 months)
# Set up a testserver with acceleration limit off.
# Have a decent amount of funmatches played there (50-100).

Ask only those players who actually played some ducati matches on this testserver and on regular servers whether to change it or not.

:oops: :oops:
And whoever brings the argument that every player's vote should count, I say: No, it should not.
If those players are not willing to invest their time to have a sound basis by playing a few funmatches one can presume they don't care enough and won't play offical matches either.
quantum dot wrote:I propose this: Let us put this discussion in the fridge by now (in all senses of the term ;) ) and let us all concentrate in getting LU started and fix the issues that we already might have before messing the field with more complications. The plan was to merge actual DUC and GU not to change the play feeling of DUC, and then merge.

In any case, a vote among players as such might be a way to quantify something but certainly not the amount of support from real players of accel. limits in DUC maps. I prefer more intelligent and educated choices, as the one proposed by Exuro in the previous post for instance. But let us postpone this by now.
And if someone does not care to post in the forums why should they vote?.?.
Lets base a decision based on logic and the players who are willing to be heard, rather then the voices of the many who don't even bother to play Ducati.
I hope my point is clear on what I'm trying to say.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by leviathan » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:55 pm

Exuro wrote:Who says every map has to be in favor of players who can react the fastest?
Some maps, like ducati do not. And that is one reason why many like it exactly that way.
Good point.
I am also in favor of accel. limit in Ducati.

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by styx » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:34 pm

Exuro wrote:Who says every map has to be in favor of players who can react the fastest?
Some maps, like ducati do not. And that is one reason why many like it exactly that way.
Hix is not in our favour. Ducati is unfavourable. There is a difference. Do you want maps such that certain players are disadvantaged? That is what you are seeking to keep. You are not voting against something extra that would help us, but to remove something that hurts us.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by click click boom » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:58 pm

you are stating it's a "handicap" but let's see, both players are on a pc, both are using a mouse, and a keyboard, and both are playing under the same server settings, this is not a handicap. A handicap is when one player isn't playing under the same conditions as the other. This is not the case here. The server set the specified settings and both players play under it. A handicap in this sense that you guys are implying would be that I do not have a acceleration limit since I am not as good and you do have the acceleration limit. Well this is not the case here.... :doh:

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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by styx » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:16 pm

click click boom wrote:you are stating it's a "handicap" but let's see, both players are on a pc, both are using a mouse, and a keyboard, and both are playing under the same server settings, this is not a handicap. A handicap is when one player isn't playing under the same conditions as the other. This is not the case here. The server set the specified settings and both players play under it. A handicap in this sense that you guys are implying would be that I do not have a acceleration limit since I am not as good and you do have the acceleration limit. Well this is not the case here.... :doh:
A handicap is an impediment. Certain players feel the accel limit worse than others do, and this impedes them. You may not feel the limit because you are slightly slower; I hesitate to speak plainly. Hence, you are not 'handicapped'. Although I am not sure this is the best place and time to argue semantics.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by Zehra » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:52 pm

Lets remove the acceleration limit on some servers and keep it on others.
Then we can avoid discussion on the issue at hand.
Later it will be possible to see which type of map players prefer, one without an acceleration limit or one with an acceleration limit.
I hope that my point is clear.
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Re: Ducati Acceleration Limit

Post by blast » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:52 pm

Doesn't seem like this thread is being all that productive, so I'm going to lock it for now.
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