Not all weapons should do 100% damage

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trpted
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Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 pm

I have this ideas that not all weapons should do 100% damage.

If that is possible in native code, perhaps it could be done with a plug-in.

Since I am not a programmer, I have no idea of how this would done to the T in the source code / writing my own plug-in.

Sure I can follow directions and get certain things that I want, but nope not on my own.

For example I could follow https://zehrahblog.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... s-see-all/

In the meantime as I wait for someone to write the code, I am brain storming of how that should be done.

How about..

Laser = 100% damage

Guided Missile = 50% damage

Every else = 10% damage

??

If you disagree with the percent of damage per weapon, what should it be?

Please and thank you

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:33 pm

This sounds a lot like a 'multi-hit' shield, which has been rejected dozens of times.
See the following threads for a small sample of it: So it is very unlikely for it to be approved, and if approved, it would not be possible in the current protocol (2.4.x).

Something which is possible in 2.4.x via plug-in, would be something similar to HitPoints by Theme97 or Wolverine by Strakowski.
However this faces the part of very low lag and jitter being a requirement, since otherwise the part of players 'receiving' flags will take too long and flags 'may' not be received by players due to high jitter or lag. (There has been issues with flag zapping, so this is one thing to be aware of.)

Note: My blog page which was linked, is in reference to a client modification and not a plug-in.
trpted wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 pm
In the meantime as I wait for someone to write the code, I am brain storming of how that should be done.
This sounds somewhat impolite, as very rarely someone will simply write the code for you.

The idea you are suggesting, would be perhaps best implemented as a client/server modification.
The 'BZ_PROTO_VERSION' in 'src/date/buildDate.cxx', would have to be modified to make it incompatible with existing and future versions/servers.
The '_endShotDetection' variable and system would need some changes and would be rather 'easy' to 'hack' in, but tricky to implement as a proper mode.

I'm somewhat busy at the moment with current projects and requests, but would be able help create either a plug-in or the client/server modifications needed at a later time.
At the moment, I would be able to offer some guidance on where to look and what to do as well, if that alternative is viable.

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:52 pm

Ok.

Before saying yes to the client/server mod and incompatible with other existing and future versions/servers, I have to ask:

Would it be worth it to do this/that?

Last check with-in BZFlag for 2.4.* there is/are 165 servers with 27 players and 6 obses.

Unsure of GCWZ0221 and other versions of bzflag that my client (2.4.12) can not see.

While I know at start, no - For this new protocol would there more players?

Please and thank you

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by tainn » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:54 pm

Why would you even want that? If you want to balance or imbalance flag potency, you can do it already by adjusting server variables respective to the flags in question and keeping the idea of a single shot killing a tank.

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:58 pm

tainn wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:54 pm
Why would you even want that? If you want to balance or imbalance flag potency, you can do it already by adjusting server variables respective to the flags in question and keeping the idea of a single shot killing a tank.
Because there are games you do not kill the other player's tank with a single shot with all weapons types. While not the best example in the world, but for example: bos wars

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:27 pm

trpted wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:52 pm
Would it be worth it to do this/that?
If it is enjoyed, I would say it is worth it.
trpted wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:52 pm
While I know at start, no - For this new protocol would there more players?
We either will have the same at best, but normally it will be a lesser number of players.
This will not draw in new players, but offers current players the ability to see some slightly different game play.
tainn wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:54 pm
Why would you even want that? If you want to balance or imbalance flag potency, you can do it already by adjusting server variables respective to the flags in question and keeping the idea of a single shot killing a tank.
The goal isn't really to alter the potency or effects, but mostly the game play, as now shots aren't 'single hit' kills.
A good amount of the games have some sort of 'health' limit, and that is what is trying to be done.

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The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by tainn » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 pm

I understand the idea, but I do not comprehend why exactly it is needed. A single shot killing a tank is one of the fundamentals of bz. Entire tactics are built around that one fact. It is the core of the game.

Some flags having 'more power' than others can be simulated in other ways already, mainly through adjusting of server variables. All in all, bz is a game of positioning and timing, and while I am all up for variety, I do not see any real bz-based benefit from this idea, especially since no concrete example of usage was used.

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:41 pm

tainn wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 pm
I understand the idea, but I do not comprehend why exactly it is needed.
It cannot be done as a plug-in without it being a 'cheap' simulation and having various issues as well due to flag zapping.
(Shot types cannot be 'given' as well.)
tainn wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 pm
A single shot killing a tank is one of the fundamentals of bz. Entire tactics are built around that one fact. It is the core of the game.
The fundamentals do not mean design decision.
The part of tactics being the logic behind that would have prevented the API from existing in the first place.
It is not really the 'core' of the game as well, but rather a design decision.
The threads I provided should show this.
tainn wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 pm
Some flags having 'more power' than others can be simulated in other ways already, mainly through adjusting of server variables.
Only so much which can be done through server variables.
tainn wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 pm
All in all, bz is a game of positioning and timing, and while I am all up for variety, I do not see any real bz-based benefit from this idea, especially since no concrete example of usage was used.
From almost every first person shooter available, there is different weapons classes, different weapons types, only types (flags) exist in BZFlag and this prevents quite a few ideas from being made and the part of 'instant' death on hit creates a lot of issues when trying to implement quite a few other modes.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:48 am

At https://wiki.bzflag.org/Public_Server it talks about the Authentication Key and a link to http://my.bzflag.org/listkeys/

#1 While I get that the protocol will have to changed, would the modified server need the Authentication Key?

Last time that I checked at http://my.bzflag.org/listkeys/ it said
Down for maintenance

This will be back soon-ish. I need to update it to work with PHP 7.
:(

#2 Is http://my.bzflag.org/listkeys/ the only way to get the Authentication Key?

#3 Would a modified server and modified client need to use a different list server?

Thank you

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:46 am

For questions one and three:
As there would be no modifications to the authentication code, it should run with the current list and authentication server.
For having it listed/authenticated, would require project permission and approval although.

For question number two:
You may wish to ask blast for a list key.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by allejo » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:58 am

As it's been mentioned in the thread, BZFlag's game design is, one shot (that hits) = kill. This isn't something I see us wanting to change as it doesn't align with the game's vision for the future.

A change like this would need to happen both in the client and server code, which means not only will you need to run a custom server, you'll need to get players to download your custom client that will only work with your modified server. Essentially, you're forking BZFlag :)
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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:11 pm

The part of the game design was one reason I did not expect the project to implement it as an official mode, in term the reason for my offering of implementing it either as a plug-in or client/server modification when I would have the time to implement it.

As probably most expect, this mode would very likely would interest only a small number of players, for which either binaries or instructions for the modifications would be provided and would probably be only for a one time event.
Thanks allejo, for clarifying the point that the project itself would not be involved and that anyone interested in this would have to download the appropriate binaries or preform the modifications to the source themselves.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:53 pm

So, if I were fork BZFlag..

#1 I (or someone else) would also have to setup a private list server, that is public

REF = https://wiki.bzflag.org/Private_List_Server

?

#2 While I get that the protocol would have to be changed, what is the limit on characters?

For example at http://my.bzflag.org/db/ I see things that start off with BZFS and then a four digit code except for GCWZ0221.

I get GCWZ0221 is. Instead of that could they used BZFS0021-mod-game-console-GCW-Zero?

For mine I could use BZFS0021-mod-not-all-weapons-100-damage?

#3 Could I use BZFlag as part of my project name or no??

Like Moded-BZFLAG-Not-All-Weapon-100-Damage?

OR a better example, while slightly off topic - it will have to do.

PCLinuxOS dropped 32bit support. There is a 32bit fork of PCLinuxOS and it is called UPLOS. It's English forum is at http://www.liberainformatica.it/forum/f ... php?fid=25

#4 How easy is it (or would be it) to fork BZFlag?

Please and thank you

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:29 pm

1. The tutorial is for 2.x, so it would not work for 2.4.x, but some things can still be referenced from it.
2. I'm assuming four characters followed by four digits.(Information should be within the protocol itself.)
3. Depends on a number of factors.
4. A simple fork is easy and even trivial, but having a fork which is modified will vary on the amount of modifications, the quality of them, the updating of them...etc (So there is no precise answer to this.)

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:40 pm

Zehra wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:29 pm
1. The tutorial is for 2.x, so it would not work for 2.4.x, but some things can still be referenced from it.
2. I'm assuming it would be four and is likely hard coded.
3. Depends on a number of factors.
4. A simple fork is easy and even trivial, but having a fork which is modified will vary on the amount of modifications, the quality of them, the updating of them...etc (So there is no precise answer to this.)

-Zehra
#1

a) Like what?

b) Is there a tutorial for 2.4.x?

c) If not to my last question, is there going to be one anytime soon?

#2 Seems to be 8 with two pairs of 4.

#3 Like what? If you do not know the answer at this time to my question that I asked, that is fine - I will wait for the answer. Plus the only coding if anything that I do on my own is for example HTML.

#4 Ok.

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:02 pm

1.
A. References to changes made and files used.
B. Nope, but we do have the Private List Server with BZFS 2.4.x thread.
C. Unless someone does it, but this is not too likely at the moment.

3.
Most likely yes, unless the project says no for whatever reason.

Personally, I think doing so much for a game play modification is a bit too much.
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but a server does not require authentication to run, if that is your concern.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by blast » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:25 pm

As long as the fork doesn't deviate from the list server format, you could continue to use the BZFlag server list. The protocol string should be 4 uppercase letters and 4 numbers. This change also would not be particularly difficult to implement.
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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Bullet Catcher » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:51 am

In my Sahara Desert Warfare map at BRL.ARPA.NET:5154, players always spawn on a platform with an ample supply of Shield flags. Grabbing one before dropping onto the battlefield ensures that it takes two hits to be killed. This isn't quite the same as a less-powerful weapon but it works with the standard game software.

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by trpted » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:49 pm

I'm somewhat busy at the moment with current projects and requests, but would be able help create either a plug-in or the client/server modifications needed at a later time.
At the moment, I would be able to offer some guidance on where to look and what to do as well, if that alternative is viable.
I think I found the clue that you are talking about for the client/server modifications.

Since I am not sure if that info is allowed publicly, please see my PM/IM/DM.

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Re: Not all weapons should do 100% damage

Post by Zehra » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:30 pm

The guidance is on the implementation and on where to search in the code for making changes as at the moment.
And is available on request and not as a clue.

-Zehra
Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~Zehra
There's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~Zehra
The time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~Zehra
The decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~Zehra
There's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

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