Apocalypse In Action :: Planet MoFo

[optic delusion]

It's when you transfer back and forth from the large platform (with the base on it) to the new bridge. Right?
The problem is that the large platform is a mesh object, and the new bridge is an BZ-defined object. Way back when, I had a hell of a time putting the base (which is BZ-Defined) on the large mesh platform, and almost gave up, it would work fine for some people but not for others. I almost gave up, then just got lucky and it worked for everybody.
It's the floating point bug. It has more to do with your processor's floating point unit (FPU) than your client version. Even when a BZ-defined object looks like a cube, it's really a six-sided sphere (or would "arc" be more accurate to say?). That means pi is used to compute it. One processor uses a slightly different path to compute decimals than another processor, and when you drive from a defined mesh onto a BZ-object you end up 0.0001 inside the object. or something like that. That's why it only happens for some people. Adjusting _maxBumpHeight does not help.

i know how to fix it. Turn the bridge into a mesh so the top plane of the bridge is a defined point and there's no pi in the computation.

[Sub[FR]]

Ah, I understand. For information the cpu is an Intel Core 2 duo 1.86 Ghz (one of the first). I know that float compute is not exact but with an error margin (plus the bugs...).I's an old computer mainly used for BZ now, I have 4 others (one WIN 7 and three linux) but none works so well than the old one (having a good Nvidia card, a Geforce 9500 GT). The WIN 7 has also a Nvidia but I use a virtual lan bridge for an emulated Alpha system and it probably introduces latency. The other boxes are two HP microververs with a Radeon card each (but not high end) and the last one is a NUC gen 6 (with intel gfx) used for musical trancription with a neural net.

[Sub[FR]]

The new version of the bridge is OK, I'm no more glued. Thank you Optic.

[Agatha]

The platform connecting the bases is a gigantic change and I have been very surprised that there has been zero backlash against it. Not a single complaint. [...] I would really like to hear your opinions on this, especially as I am attempting a complete map rebuild. What I plan to do is expand the neutral zone back from the base, so you cannot get the team flag off of the platform until you've reached the Hole of Justice. You'll have to run it back to the hole before you can drop it to the ground. This will work for both teams, in both directions. So when you grab the other team's flag, it will be harder to get it away from their base... and when a team is attempting to save their flag from being captured, they will have to work harder to pull it away from the opposing team's base. I think that leaving your own flag on your base will be the best place to hide it. So please let me know what you think.

I've seen plenty of complaints with these changes (though I don't necessarily agree with all of them myself; generally, I am all for changes per-se, because they make for interesting novelty).

The main effect of the bridge seems to be that the center WG flag isn't so strategic anymore. Enemy tanks can easily travel from one base to the other without it—and travel en masse at that—which mainly means it's far more difficult to cap, especially 1v1 or 1v2. I can't imagine that effect being desirable, but nor is it terrible.

When there's a bridge between bases, you of course do need a neutral zone on it. However, I think the "cheese" of "walking" the flag, flag-drop by flag-drop across, recently patched, was a feature, not a bug. It's useful for 1v1 / 1v2 play, while also being infeasible for larger team games. That should be unpatched, you ask me.

The large neutral zone beside the bases has drawn lots of (well-deserved) criticism, and that's the main thing you should fix. There's no reason it should be there, and it's unexpected that it is. It's not a "no man's land" visually, for example, and there's no undesirable tactic having it prevents. It's also the usual direction to save your flag, and on several occasions I've seen a would-be savior jump off that edge, only to have their flag teleport back into danger. Sure, people could learn they should not do that with practice, but that shows how counterintuitive it actually is. [EDIT: Perhaps most importantly and worst of all, an unintended consequence of the zones is that you can jump up onto a ledge below the base, and then jump into the side zone. This then teleports the flag right next to the base above, where it can be easily captured.]

TL;DR: the bridge is okay, but please re-enable walking flags across, and remove the pointless and bad side neutral zones.

[optic delusion]

These are all valid criticisms, Agatha, Thank You for your thoughts. I really need this kind of feedback. However, I am going to do the exact opposite of what you advocate. The bridge is going away, and I am adding more neutral zones.
When I first got the neutral zone plugin working, I realized that adding a base-to-base bridge was possible. It seemed a pretty far out idea, so I had to at least try it. It was definitely a valid experiment, I think at least some people like it. It did not really FAIL, but it's also not RIGHT.... I'm thinking maybe I put back a thin tightrope style bridge with no room to maneuver while on it? Remember when people could jump from base to base? Another possibility is to nudge the bases closer together, enabling that jump (through the neutral zone so team flags drop).
I am going to go back to what I originally planned for the neutral zones, which is that team flags cannot be taken off the forward portion of the base platforms.You have to carry team flags from the base all the way back to the Hole of Justice before they can be removed from the platform.The neutral zones will not be invisible (which i think is the biggest problem with them now). I also have a bugfix with the teleporter.

In other news... Neutral zones can be used to remove from a player any single type of flag, or all flags, but I don't have a plan for using that function.
We also played with making a Phantom Zone Zone, any shot that enters the zone becomes a phantom zoned shot, nonlethal to all except phantom zoned tanks. That one didn't go far.

[Agatha]

I am going to go back to what I originally planned for the neutral zones, which is that team flags cannot be taken off the forward portion of the base platforms.You have to carry team flags from the base all the way back to the Hole of Justice before they can be removed from the platform.

Well, you can of course do what you want, but I advise against this. What's even the point? How does this do anything except make flag caps more annoying? I suppose it makes the path longer . . .

I'm thinking maybe I put back a thin tightrope style bridge with no room to maneuver while on it? [...] Another possibility is to nudge the bases closer together, enabling that jump (through the neutral zone so team flags drop).

The philosophy of Apoc (AFAICT; forgive me if I am wrong) is that chaos should outshine skill (witness: the prevalence of tons of SW weapons, the systematic removal of tricky jumps up from pyramids and ledges when discovered, ultra-lethal F/GM/etc. available randomly, adjusting various surfaces to reflect unpredictably, etc.). One always has at least one tank width for maneuvering on any bridge, no matter how thin, and jumps will always be easier for different players, meaning skilled players benefit disproportionately. So, while I myself personally support and like those changes from my own (aspiration to!) skill, I'm not sure they're "in character" for the map.

The neutral zones will not be invisible

Yes; that would help a lot with the current situation, and it's a good idea for any incarnation involving such zones.

In other news... Neutral zones can be used to remove from a player any single type of flag, or all flags, but I don't have a plan for using that function.
We also played with making a Phantom Zone Zone, any shot that enters the zone becomes a phantom zoned shot, nonlethal to all except phantom zoned tanks. That one didn't go far.

Interesting possibilities! Additional ideas: for dropping flags, perhaps make TH drop when someone camps on base to steal from the other side (not sure if that behavior is to be discouraged). Re "Phantom Zone Zone": perhaps should just convert to SB instead of zoning them—that way, bullets remain lethal to normal tanks, but gives means to fight against 1-shot PZ instead of just running away. More conservative idea: make teleporters (at least those over the holes) convert bullets. It would be thematic because that's where PZ comes from, and it's a significant, interesting, but also not large, gameplay change.

[Rotten Pineapple]

The neutral zones will not be invisible

Good idea! Good UX suggests there should be warning markings of some kind. Alternatively the zone could have a deadly physical barrier like scarwall.

[Rotten Pineapple]

I note that this morning (19 Nov 2023) the Apoc server seems to be reverted so that the new bridge is completely gone.

I also liked Agatha's idea about having the teleporters convert ordinary shots fired into them to PZ shots and PZ shots fired into them into ordinary shots.

More conservative idea: make teleporters (at least those over the holes) convert bullets. It would be thematic because that's where PZ comes from, and it's a significant, interesting, but also not large, gameplay change.

But it isn't clear where this could be used effectively, since one simply could not fire a PZ shot into the raised teleporter in back of the base to emerge as a regular shot from the cave output. The PZ'd tank would instead fall through the back of the base. Maybe the teleporter relationships (inputs, outputs) need to be changed too?

Perhaps the transformation should be bullets to super-bullets and super-bullets to regular ?

[Agatha]

I also liked Agatha's idea about having the teleporters convert ordinary shots fired into them to PZ shots and PZ shots fired into them into ordinary shots.

More conservative idea: make teleporters (at least those over the holes) convert bullets. It would be thematic because that's where PZ comes from, and it's a significant, interesting, but also not large, gameplay change.

Clarification: I meant that as a continuation of my prior sentence, that the conversion would be from regular bullets to SB. The idea being that you could engage PZ by firing through a teleporter (or, from the prior sentence, a magic zone).

On reflection, I think a teleporter that converts maybe is not such a good idea—there would be non-obvious interactions with e.g. L or geno, and it would mess with common situations where people grab the 1-shot PZ to escape or pass through the tele. On the other hand, a magic zone that converts bullets to SB (e.g. for fleeing into to be able to fire back at a pursuing 1-shot PZ) would surely be interesting (albeit perhaps too gimmicky or special-cased).

[Zehra]

On the other hand, a magic zone that converts bullets to SB (e.g. for fleeing into to be able to fire back at a pursuing 1-shot PZ) would surely be interesting (albeit perhaps too gimmicky or special-cased).

Edit: Updated post with additional details/background on 2023-11-23

The concept of Powerup zones exists at that point. Velocity Drivers is the first thing which comes to mind, as very easily zones could be made to speed up/slow down players or give per-player boosts depending on region. (Unrelated: Actually, come to think of it, you could get some very unique/interesting game play mechanics by per-zone var manipulation. Examples: "Towers" with extended radar ranges on short range radars, mountains with fog, water regions with reduced gravity/jump velocity for slower movement, per-zone weather vars [rain/snow/fog/clear skies] in/outside of buildings/zones..etc)

Interpolating with what you've said and to the idea of powerup zones. Perhaps the "turret plug-in" may come more closely to what you're looking for, as it the following advantages over simply shot changing may be found:

• Avoids issues with shot changing/modifying.
• Counter to it can be easily specified. (Simply a zone for a player to drive into to counter the turret.)
• Provides visual feedback when "active" compare to simply shot changing.
• Adjustable rate of fire/control
• Does not mess/interfere with currently held/used flags.

-Zehra