Wings controversy

Dervish · Post by **Dervish** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:59 pm

Wings is one of the newer flags in BZFlag that didn't exist until the 2.x switchover of the client.

It may be fun and useful on servers and map designed for it, but possibly unbalanced on others. What's your opinion? By the way, no cop-out "No Opinion" option -- if you don't have an opinion, don't vote.

The remove from default option means don't enable the spawning of this flag for servers unless the server owner specifically enables it.

Memnarch · Post by **Memnarch** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:13 pm

I think the original idea of Wings was great. You know, the just steer your tank in the air thing, it's maybe just the set _wingsJumpCount thig that makes the unballance.

-Memnarch

Supertanker · Post by **Supertanker** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:38 pm

I think that the only thing wings should be alloweed is the dir contron in the air. Ur right, memnarch.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:38 pm

It should not be used on every server and should be restriced as to the jump height, number of jumps, etc...

Supertanker · Post by **Supertanker** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:53 pm

yeah, cause like you said in the other forum, you just go up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...and up...well, you get teh idea. i went so hight once i caused the server to crash. natrualy i got banned.

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:08 am

for the LOVE OF CRAP 343_Guilty_Spark please post seriously. This is not a childs playroom

The default for wings is 0 flaps and just driving in the air.

All the games that have multi flap, are done so by explicidly seting the variable. Ether in the map or the vars file. This means some one set this option for a reason.

We have no flags that are left out of the default "gimme some super flags" option, and I don't see wings as being any worse then any other flag. 2 years ago the same discussions happend about GM. It was too powerfull and campers were unkillable. Then people learned how to deal with it. The same will have to happen with wings. Got GM and the wings guys is kicking your butt, go get SW and show him a world of hurt. GM is not meant to be the most powerfull flag out there, nether his Wings, it's just difrent. If it realy is THAT horible and it should be removed from the game, then no servers would be using it or seting the jump count. This fact alone proves that some people ( the server ops ) want it.

the enemy · Post by **the enemy** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:41 am

Well said Jeff. Some maps are better with a high wingsjumpcount, and for some reason many maps/servers seem to use it; but there's definitely too many that shouldn't because it makes wings too powerful. The default settings make WG quite tame.

Post by **L4m3r** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:58 am

It's a fun flag, but it usually occurs too frequently. it's up there with GM and L as far as how poweful it is... it should be rare like GM and L usually are.

At secretplace, they're so common that there's no avoiding them... nomatter where you are, someone will fly up/down and kill you.

Lan · Post by **Lan** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:30 am

Keep it in the game under no further limitations. It is fun when there are multiple jumps and I have it, but not fun when others have it and use it to get an advantage against me, so whenever there is a flag that is only fun to me when I have it, I just forget about it when someone else has it. Dealing with it adds challenge. Its being able to be selfish while being considerate of others: I enjoy it while I have it (hate it otherwise), but I vote to keep it anyway for everybody because I enjoy it just as much as the person using it against me.

RPG · Post by **RPG** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:29 pm

Ok, to try to drill it into some people's heads:

1. Shockwave, it's a pretty good flag with it's default radius a decent range. Nobody complains about it.
2. Wings, it's also a pretty good flag with it's default _jumpCount. Now, when people start increasing the jump count, people get pissed because they say "it's too powerful" "i'm horrible and get shot too much".

Now, if someone took shockwave's _shockOutRadius, and increased it to where it destroys half the map, it would become a really powerful and unfair flag. My point is both flags are pretty good as-is. It's when the server owners tinker with the settings, they can make those flags super powerful. My subpoint: If you don't like a server's wings jump count, don't play there.

Soraya · Post by **Soraya** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:25 pm

well said RPG, well said. I completely agree.

cookiecutter · Post by **cookiecutter** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:34 pm

At secretplace where I play wings used to have something ridiculous like 15 flaps and in the hands of a decent player it was unkillable.

Now it is down to three. It is still very good but can be killed if you know what to do.

So basically as others said, its really the server settings that make it too good, not the flag itself.

Post by **L4m3r** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:05 am

Another reason it's "unkillable" in many cases is that it's so easy to run away if you have WG... if I come across someone with wings and I have CL, they usually just run away.

Something else that helps tame wings is _shotsKeepVerticalVelocity. While it does give the wings user another way to nail you (by raining bullets down from above), it allows for the possibility of hitting the winged tank when it's in the air, and makes it a lot harder to kill the "victim" if he/she jumps.

Setting the max flaps to one or two makes the difference between it being average or powerful. once jumpcount is greater than one, it allows the user to jump faster and higher and gives that maneuverability advantage. there isn't really a middle ground... at the default setting, wings aren't really any fun to use.

Again, I think frequency is the answer. make it rare, and it becomes less of a problem. the issue at secretplace is that there are too many people who use WG almost exclusively- once they die, they'll hunt for another WG flag, find it, and resume their tactic of starting no-contest fights against unsuspecting players.

I think it could also be cool to have "multi-jump" and "drive in air" (maybe call it air-ride?) available as separate flags. these could be used as an alternative to WG.

Dervish · Post by **Dervish** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:09 am

the enemy wrote:...multiple wing jumps must have been a conscious decision of the map maker or server owner - it isn't the default.

Jeff raised some good points. Btw, thx Jeff and "the enemy" for stating that the default for Wings flag use is disabled. That I did not know.

I guess too many server owners enable it thinking that others will enjoy the flag all the freakin' long time.

the enemy wrote:Further up someone said that GM is a way to get someone witih Wings. It sort of is. But the problem with it is at the same time Wings were introduced in 2.0, GM's stopped being able to shoot close up...

Yes, and some server owner out there puts GM, Wings, SW, and CL on a map with no radar (forgot the server name). It's still a fun map and theme, but GM simply isn't viable against someone skilled with Wings (especially when Wings has unlimited jump counts).

As multiple others have mentioned here and in the other thread about Wings, I agree that jump count should be limited to 1 for any normal server. Being able to move while jumping is quite powerful enough. But how can we get server owners to agree?

Let's throw a typo in the bzfs docs and a bug in the command line to discourage them, j/k.

Post by **L4m3r** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:20 am

Dervish DuKot wrote:Yes, and some server owner out there puts GM, Wings, SW, and CL on a map with no radar (forgot the server name). It's still a fun map and theme, but GM simply isn't viable against someone skilled with Wings (especially when Wings has unlimited jump counts).

BIYA made that map... I don't know if he hosts the game, though. That server is actually pretty well-balanced because standard gravity is pretty low and wings' jump height is low. this makes it harder for wings to escape the GM. Vertical bullet inertia does help the wings a bit, but someone skilled with GM can do pretty well against wings.

Dervish · Post by **Dervish** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:26 am

Yes, the gravity is lower, and it helps GM tanks a little. But I can still easily out maneuver any tank with GM if I have Wings. And that's not just because of my skill.

I'm sure most decent players could do this.

But then again, that's straying from the topic. Sorry I brought it up.

Wings started from such a simple idea. It was simple and wouldn't have affected the strategy in its original creative form:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php? ... um_id=9553

Post by **trepan** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:30 am

-set _wingsSlideTime 1000000

RexFlex · Post by **RexFlex** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:31 am

Wings are a good feature overall.

Some servers could do well to hobble them a bit more by limiting the number of flaps for balance (for instance, there is no fun playing hunt-the-rabbit when they can just fly away and never land or can purch themselves in very difficult places for non-wings tanks to reach).

I don't think there is cause for a default off setting.

wiz · Post by **wiz** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:09 pm

Set the _wingsSlideTime to a reasonable value (1,000,000 is a *bit* high

). Between 0.3 and 0.5 is usually enough to take the edge away from the wingers.

Grumbler · Post by **Grumbler** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:03 pm

yep, I am not a great fan of wings..................but that is entirely due to the present setup on most servers. My disappointment comes in from the way GM missles fly directly down when they are tracking a falling wings tank and the tank "flaps".

.................I also think the default activation time is a bit much................GM has had its "family jewels" really cut out.

...............but, we are all at the mercy of the server owner, and if that is the way they want it setup so be it.

SilentSwan · Post by **SilentSwan** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:50 pm

Odd, I made a post here, but it seems to have quietly disappeared...

RPG · Post by **RPG** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:42 am

You mean the post that said DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THISDELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS

I think you wanted it to dissapear.

SilentSwan · Post by **SilentSwan** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:22 am

RPG wrote:You mean the post that said DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THISDELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS DELETE THIS

I think you wanted it to dissapear.

Ah, well first off, that's not what it said. Secondly, it was meant to be a humourous reference to the other poster who repeated the same text over and over and over above. Somehow, that post wasn't silently "disappeared down the memory hole".

Anything else you don't like that you'd care to discuss? Feel free to email me. I'd be perfectly happy to discuss some things if you'd like.

SilentSwan · Post by **SilentSwan** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:44 am

[text deleted]

Public apology removed.

SilentSwan · Post by **SilentSwan** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:53 am

But then again, maybe not...

1) Jeff, your email link seems to be broken:
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<XXXXXX@XXX.com>
(reason: 550 5.1.1 unknown or illegal alias: XXXXXX@XXX.com)
(expanded from: <XXXXXX@XXX.com>)

(address removed to protect the "innocent")

2) I just discovered that ANOTHER post in the chat forum was removed for no apparent reason.

What exactly is the problem here? Don't try to tell me *that* was an "accident", too.

Actually, I don't really care. I think I've answered my own question. I give up.

*cheers*

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Wings controversy

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Wings controversy