Seasonal Ladder Demo

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Seasonal Ladder Demo

Post by SportChick » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:21 pm

Mistake has generously done a mock-up demo of what a Seasonal Ladder might look like if it were incorporated into the existing Ducati League Website. Please take a look, remember it is in demo form only, and provide feedback here.

Thanks mistake for taking the time to do this!

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Post by Xell » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:34 am

Ok, as far as i can see there are 3 'new' links in the menu: 'Ladder', which shows the actual Ladder of the season, 'Season', which shows an overview over the past seasons, and 'Standings' which includes the all-time-ladder.
Really nice, although i'd rather prefer a 'Hall Of Fame' instead of 'Season'. Hall of Fame can really motivate to play a lot of matches, and that Season-Page doesn't seem so important that it would have to be in the main menu. Maybe it could be available through a link on the 'Standings'-Page.
But, nice work mistake. The poll on the ladder-subject also seems very clear, so i can hope something like this will be done soon? :D

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Post by mistake » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:44 am

Waddayamean with mock-up :-D
_______________________________________
An explanation of the items:

Ladder
This is the ladder of the running season. From there you can also navigate to previous seasons. The season ladder is calculated from the win/draw/lost matches for each team in the current season, where:

score = FACTOR_WIN * matches_won + FACTOR_DRAW * matches_drawn + FACTOR_LOST * matches_lost

FACTOR_WIN, FACTOR_DRAW and FACTOR_LOST are fixed numbers, which can be configured and changed for the current season if the numbers or not optimal. Currently the following factors are used:
FACTOR_WIN = 3
FACTOR_DRAW = 2
FACTOR_LOST = 1

From the Season Ladder you can also navigate to the matches pages to show all the matches for the selected season.

The Ladder page also shows the ELO change of each team during the season, so you can see if a team improved in a season, or how strong where the opponents they played in a season.
Unfortunately I have many difficulties with this when match results are changed, deleted or added in past time and the number shown will not be quite accurate if this happens. This is on my TODO.

How is the ranking calculated:

Code: Select all

ORDER BY score desc, won desc, draw desc, zelo desc
  1. The first order criteria is the score for the season as shown above.
    score = FACTOR_WIN * matches_won + FACTOR_DRAW * matches_drawn + FACTOR_LOST * matches_lost
  2. If the overall score is the same, the number of matches won is used, meaning the team who has won the most matches will have a higher rating
  3. If the number of won matches is the same too, the number of matches tied is used.
  4. If all of these are the same, the ELO improvement is taken as last factor to determine the ranking
Different alternatives can be discussed. A valid alternative could be:

Code: Select all

ORDER BY won desc, draw desc, lost desc, zelo desc
.



Seasons
This is an overview of all seasons so far. It shows the winner, runner up and 3rd place positions of each season, optionally including the most active team of that season and optionally the win/draw/loss figures.
Clicking on a season brings you to the Ladder of the selected season.

Standings
This is the Ladder over all seasons. The score used for the Standings page is:

score = FACTOR_1st * seasons_1st + FACTOR_2nd * seasons_2nd + FACTOR_3rd * seasons_3rd

where
seasons_1st: number of times the team has won a season
seasons_2nd: number of times the team came in on second place in a season
seasons_3rd: number of times the team came in on third place in a season

and

FACTOR_1st = 3
FACTOR_2nd = 2
FACTOR_3rd = 1

FACTOR_1st, FACTOR_2nd and FACTOR_3rd is configurable and can be changed.

Summary
'd rather prefer a 'Hall Of Fame' instead of 'Season'.
Both Standings and Seasons page serve as a "Hall Of Fame" list for the league. The reason why the name "Hall Of Fame" is not used, is that it's is simply to long for the navigation bar on the left :)
Hall of Fame can really motivate to play a lot of matches, and that Season-Page doesn't seem so important that it would have to be in the main menu. Maybe it could be available through a link on the 'Standings'-Page.
The main idea was to have many views.
The view most important is the view you like most.
Personally I would say that the Ladder page is the most important one, since you would play to get in a top position there to make it on the Seasons and Standings page. Only if you come in on 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, or when you are very active, you will make it on the Seaons page.
For those that don't want the seasonal view, the old Team view with an ELO based ranking is still there. So this illustrates how the Seasonal view brings additional views to the league rankings instead of replacing old views which I thought would be a condition for it to be accepted.
So those that celebrate high ELO rankings, that view is still present.

Also the code is not finished yet. In this version the team pages have no references to seasons yet, just the list of current matches. This is on my TODO list, so seasonal views will be prominent there too.

Also on my TODO is to add the MVP feature.
Last edited by mistake on Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Xell » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:09 pm

mistake wrote:
I'd rather prefer a 'Hall Of Fame' instead of 'Season'.
Both Standings and Seasons page serve as a "Hall Of Fame" list for the league. The reason why the name "Hall Of Fame" is not used, is that it's is simply to long for the navigation bar on the left :)
Yes, your right. Maybe i was confused by the design or the name :) What about 'Winners' or 'HOF' ?
mistake wrote:The Ladder page also shows the ELO change of each team during the season, so you can see if a team improved in a season, or how strong where the opponents they played in a season.
Unfortunately I have many difficulties with this when match results are changed, deleted or added in past time and the number shown will not be quite accurate if this happens.
Maybe it would be easier if you just give every team a zelo of 1200 at the beginning of the season, then it could be computet 'normally'. However, that would just be a second, seasonal zelo, and it wouldn't affect the 'real' zelo. Just a thought.

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Post by mistake » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:20 pm

Maybe it would be easier if you just give every team a zelo of 1200 at the beginning of the season, then it could be computet 'normally'. However, that would just be a second, seasonal zelo, and it wouldn't affect the 'real' zelo. Just a thought.
This is one idea i have considered and not completely dismissed yet.
My question at the time was, what does that figure means.
A strong team and a weak team will match each other, both having a zelo of 1200. The strong team will win easely, and getting many ELO points for that.
What a starting ELO of 1200 for each season means is that you see the ELO isolated for that season, which is a valid view, its a strength index for that season.

First I wanted to have a figure that shows how the ELO of a team changed across seasons so a team sees when it has improved. So even a not so succeful team can have a more positive number if it improved more compared to the improvement of a more succesful team.

But I could easely as well compare your 1200 ELO over several seasons for each team and also come up with a meaningful figure that shows improvement.

I will try to add this to the demo and we'll see how it looks like.
Last edited by mistake on Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by mistake » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:24 pm

Yes, your right. Maybe i was confused by the design or the name Smile What about 'Winners' or 'HOF' ?
Question: So, renaming
  1. Ladder -> Standings
  2. Seasons -> Winners
  3. Standings -> HOF
or
  1. Ladder -> Season
  2. Seasons -> Winners
  3. Standings -> HOF
or
  1. Ladder -> Ladder
  2. Seasons -> Seasons
  3. Standings -> Winners
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Post by Longhair » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:26 pm

Wowza mistake, looks great to me!

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Post by mistake » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:01 pm

Maybe it would be easier if you just give every team a zelo of 1200 at the beginning of the season, then it could be computet 'normally'. However, that would just be a second, seasonal zelo, and it wouldn't affect the 'real' zelo. Just a thought.
The current demo features this now, you can go and view teh differences.
Also added is the recalculation on match change/deletion.

For those that want to try it out, send me a bzmail on ducati and i will give you the login data for admin privs.
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Post by sussi » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:18 pm

wow how difficult it looks if different identifier as used.
We have the present score, we were talking about ELO, we have a seasonal league, now ladders and standings not to forget the proposal for monthly rating.
I agree that 3 diffent thinks are usefull.
1. a number what show: how strengh, succesfull or good ateam is. It should not depend from time (decade, year, month...)
2. some kind of seasonal rating: my proposal is, to arrange a yearly (or 2 x yeary) tournament. The first places could hang out in a hall of frame.
3. A monthly rating based on statistics.

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Post by Xell » Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:28 am

mistake wrote:
Maybe it would be easier if you just give every team a zelo of 1200 at the beginning of the season, then it could be computet 'normally'. However, that would just be a second, seasonal zelo, and it wouldn't affect the 'real' zelo. Just a thought.
The current demo features this now, you can go and view teh differences.
Also added is the recalculation on match change/deletion.
Nice, i like that. Like the rating you had before, with the +- changes, it shows if a team improved (assuming you know the 'normal' zelo or the zelo of the season before). But it can display more: it shows the actual, real zelo for the past months, which may be even more significant than the overall Zelo. Unlike the normal zelo, where good teams just can stop playing if they're score is high enough, every team starts from the same point again, thus has to prove their skill all the time.
mistake wrote: Question: So, renaming

1. Ladder -> Standings
2. Seasons -> Winners
3. Standings -> HOF

or

1. Ladder -> Season
2. Seasons -> Winners
3. Standings -> HOF

or

1. Ladder -> Ladder
2. Seasons -> Seasons
3. Standings -> Winners
Good question. I forgot what i had in mind before, and HOF doesnt seem very meaningful. Just forget what i said, your version is better.
I think i had problems because the points are very close related to each other, Maybe one could take 'standings' out of the menu, and put a dropDownList above the 'Ladder' page, where you can choose if you want to view the ladder for season x, season y or the main score ladder (which would be the standings-page).

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Post by mistake » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:09 am

Xell wrote:Maybe one could take 'standings' out of the menu, and put a dropDownList above the 'Ladder' page
This is what you have when go to the Seasons page. You see a list of all seasons, click on one (the link is maybe not yet very intuitive, maybe an icon would be better, but for now, click on the date) and you see the ladder for that season.
With to many seasons played, a drop down list may get to long.
Xell wrote: where you can choose if you want to view the ladder for season x, season y or the main score ladder (which would be the standings-page).
The ladder for each season has a previous/next button for navigating to different seasons.
With to many new items on the left navigation bar you might be right that it can get to much. On the other hand beeing able to navigate to all (most) places with a simple click on the navigation bar is also favourable to avoid to get lost on the site.
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