One of my strategies on Boxy Wars

Questions and comments on tactics and playstyles
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dartman
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One of my strategies on Boxy Wars

Post by dartman »

Yes, I know I'm giving away one of my secrets, but who cares? :P

So, as you probably know, near the top of the base are several flags related to sight: Cloaking, Stealth, Seer, etc. Grab CL, so that you won't be destroyed by all that laser sniping (for those who aren't in the know, you can't use a laser to kill a tank with cloaking. the shots go right through). You'll need to have 5 people up there (all cloaked), including yourself, to execute this plan:

Still on the top of the base. Two tanks go to each side of the top part of the base. The other tank goes in the middle. But if you have a lot of tanks on the other team firing through the middle, that tank should take cover behind one of the pyramids up top.

On signal, the four tanks who were on the side jump off to the ground and advance towards the opponents base. They are split into two "squads" made of two tanks; if you're one of these tanks, you're squadmate is the person you jumped off with. Anyway, as they make their way towards the other team's base, they take cover for each other and watch the other squad on radar. When they rech the destination, both squads charge inside and invade the base, defeating all other enemy tanks inside.

Once they make it there, it's the other guy's turn. You know, the tank who was waiting in the middle or taking cover. He goes out and heads straight for the enemy base, grabs their flag (the other guys who invaded the base should still be holding the enemy tanks off), and heads straight back to his base to cap.

A variation could also be used that uses 6 players: the one tank who was going to cap instead becomes of a part of his own squad. The other squad member covers him.
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Post by dartman »

^Ah, never thought of that. ood point. I wonder how to get around that...
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Post by netochka nezvanova »

well don't shoot them
if you wait long enough they all leave base
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Post by sussi »

THe spawn area of boxy isn't really good, it based to much how are your teamies playing. At the moment it is a big prison for the weaker team. I really want to see a escape door from the the spawn area. A teleporter at the rear side of the base would do it.Its end could located at the middle at high altitudes (around 400) to spread tank around on their own half part of map.
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Post by Sky King »

sussi wrote:THe spawn area of boxy isn't really good, it based to much how are your teamies playing. At the moment it is a big prison for the weaker team.
I agree... what it does is totally overemphasize the genocide flag. If you can cap the opponent's flag, and then follow it up with one or two geno kills, then you've given all your teammies enough time to get their desired weapons, get in position, and turn their base into a coffin for a few minutes. With a few lasers, a few OOs, and an SW or two, you can "seal" the opponent's base for a few minutes, typically until your teammies get too agressive and either start getting killed, or accidently TK each other.

I'm in the camp (and perhaps the minority) that believes that the geno flag almost ruins boxy. The geno flag is really powerful and works as it should in maps where there's real teams... But if you watch the way people play boxy, it's really more of an FFA shoot-em-up with "allies" and it seems most people pay very little attention to protecting their flag, or capping the enemy's. They just want to shoot a lot of stuff with lasers, or outsmart lasers with CL. Most of the time, I find my teammies really don't care if the G flag is in play, and don't see getting hit by it as any worse than getting hit by anything else, so they play on, business as usual, while their teammates are dying en masse.

This notion of being trapped in your base is a perfect illustration... it maximizes your kills, for sure... but CTF isn't about kills, it is about capping the flag. Keeping all of your enemy confined to the room their flag is in, by making them spawn over and over, doesn't get you any closer to capping the flag, it makes it a thousand times harder. Almost all the tactics I hear discussed about boxy are "how to kill more bad guys" and not as much about how to use teamwork to cap.

Personally, I never, ever cap the enemy flag until they are all spread out all over the field, so that I only have to deal with 2 or 3 on the way home.

OK, done rantin'...
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Post by RexFlex »

I agree... what it does is totally overemphasize the genocide flag.
That is why one of my favourate tactics is to guard the centre with a shockwave to discourage the other team from aquiring the geno. Unfortuantely, sw has limited shots and when I'm running low, few other players seem interested in replacing me when I ask.
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin paid; mostly only when I'm gettin paid. But eating people alive, when does that get fun?"
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Re: One of my strategies on Boxy Wars

Post by Sky King »

dartman wrote:You'll need to have 5 people up there (all cloaked), including yourself, to execute this plan: ...snip...
Well, my thought is "yes and no"... here's what I thought when I read this:

1. This may work a time or two, but like in real combat, repeating this makes it predictable and predictable gets you killed. This, like all plans, has to be used sparingly.

2. You have to have some buddies that really, really know how to avoid TK and are committed to peventing it. Thsi is SOOO important to understand: In this scheme, the players must be willing to pass up a shot that may TK, EVEN IF PASSING UP THE SHOT RESULTS IN THEIR CERTAIN DEATH... That is because if you have 4 players attacking... getting killed reduces you to 3... but, TKing kills you both, cutting you in half and the momentum is lost. In all CTF games, players seem to underestimate how much momentum is lost by a TK... Second only to the cap/geno, TKs are the single most momentum-sapping thing in boxy.

3. You have to keep your teammates from geno'ing your enemy, or they're all going to spawn in at once... sure, it's a shooting gallery, but you'll also have more TKs, and some of your CLs will get killed, and the plan will be short-lived.

Here's what I really like about it... It's teamwork, and in Boxy, nothing... NOTHING makes the game more fun than when you and a couple of others are teaming up... To me, that's what makes CTF fun, whether you win or lose...

I think 5 may be too many. There's no way to get 12 teammies working together, that's for sure... But even 5 may be a little too many. I think in boxy, the "magic number" is 3... Get one laser, one SW, and one other--a CL or a OO... and form an informal "sub team"... and you can absolutely rock all day long, stack up some monster kill numbers, and get plenty of caps.
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Post by Sky King »

RexFlex wrote:That is why one of my favourate tactics is to guard the centre with a shockwave to discourage the other team from aquiring the geno. Unfortuantely, sw has limited shots and when I'm running low, few other players seem interested in replacing me when I ask.
I hear ya... i used to do things like sneak into the enemy base with CL or OO, and when I'm about to pick up their flag and run, I'll message my teamies... "I'm coming out to OUR left, their right, and taking the wide route around the pyramids, here I go..."

And I bust out only to find that all 11 of my teammates are too busy lining up higher kill counts in some other corner of the board to really be interested. I usually don't even bother announcing any more, I just grab and go. Usually you can tell within a few minutes if there's any teamwork going on, or if you're more or less on your own.

And if I get killed on my way home, even if I am close to our base, it is the exception when someone goes out to pick up the flag, they just leave it, and I have to spawn and go fight back to it... makes me crazy.

I think they should change CTF games so that:

a. You get credit for all the kills when you cap a flag, just ike you do if you geno;
b. You lose one additional point above and beyond being killed every time the enemy caps your flag

Then people would be SCRAMBLIN for the flags like lunatics.
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Post by A Meteorite »

You guys have brought up many interesting points about Boxy War - I appreciate it. :D
sussi wrote:THe spawn area of boxy isn't really good, it based to much how are your teamies playing. At the moment it is a big prison for the weaker team. I really want to see a escape door from the the spawn area. A teleporter at the rear side of the base would do it.Its end could located at the middle at high altitudes (around 400) to spread tank around on their own half part of map.
I'm experimenting with spawn zones... I was thinking spawning people in the corners and stick some laser flags there. As for an escape teleporter route what if it put you up on top where the "prong" is?
Sky King wrote:I agree... what it does is totally overemphasize the genocide flag. If you can cap the opponent's flag, and then follow it up with one or two geno kills, then you've given all your teammies enough time to get their desired weapons, get in position, and turn their base into a coffin for a few minutes. With a few lasers, a few OOs, and an SW or two, you can "seal" the opponent's base for a few minutes, typically until your teammies get too agressive and either start getting killed, or accidently TK each other.
I should be removing that geno flag - I despise it myself even (and many others do). What would be a good replacement? Maybe SB mixed in with one or two bad flags (SB would rock in the center at Boxy War)?
Sky King wrote:I'm in the camp (and perhaps the minority) that believes that the geno flag almost ruins boxy. The geno flag is really powerful and works as it should in maps where there's real teams... But if you watch the way people play boxy, it's really more of an FFA shoot-em-up with "allies" and it seems most people pay very little attention to protecting their flag, or capping the enemy's. They just want to shoot a lot of stuff with lasers, or outsmart lasers with CL. Most of the time, I find my teammies really don't care if the G flag is in play, and don't see getting hit by it as any worse than getting hit by anything else, so they play on, business as usual, while their teammates are dying en masse.

This notion of being trapped in your base is a perfect illustration... it maximizes your kills, for sure... but CTF isn't about kills, it is about capping the flag. Keeping all of your enemy confined to the room their flag is in, by making them spawn over and over, doesn't get you any closer to capping the flag, it makes it a thousand times harder. Almost all the tactics I hear discussed about boxy are "how to kill more bad guys" and not as much about how to use teamwork to cap.
I agree fully here: Boxy War is not CTF emphasized. It's just a "strings-attached" thing that really means nothing. I'm hoping to make some improvements there. ;)
RexFlex wrote:That is why one of my favourate tactics is to guard the centre with a shockwave to discourage the other team from aquiring the geno. Unfortuantely, sw has limited shots and when I'm running low, few other players seem interested in replacing me when I ask.
Removing geno would fix that. 8)
Sky King wrote:a. You get credit for all the kills when you cap a flag, just ike you do if you geno;
b. You lose one additional point above and beyond being killed every time the enemy caps your flag

Then people would be SCRAMBLIN for the flags like lunatics.
That would be a great addition to the standard Boxy War! I could easily modify Steal the Bacon to allow for this. :D

You guys brought up many great points and I'm glad you're interested.

/me goes to work on it
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Post by dartman »

And yesterday I thought up an idea for Boxy Wars: Have two versions, one CTF and one FFA. on the FFA, just change the areaas with the bases to and replace 'em with a buncha different stuff. On the CTF version, leave the map as is and implement the ideas Sky King had.
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Post by the obvious trap »

i usually just laser snipe, with the occasional raid with CL, but not much else, nets me a decent score fairly often
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Post by Sky King »

Meteorite, thanks for chiming in on this...

Having played a lot of boxy now, and having experimented with a lot of different approaches over the past month, here's some more thoughts:
  • 1. Does there have to be some super-duper flag in the middle? Why would the geno have to be replaced by SB, or another super-flag? (I think SB would be BRUTAL in boxy!)
Some other thougthts, many of which won't work because current server code may not allow them, and they may not even be possible through plug-ins:
  • 2. A double-edged geno flag... If you hit someone, you kill their whole team. But wait... If YOU get hit while you are holding it, it kills YOUR whole team... makes you think twice about whether you want to go for it.

    2b. Change geno bahavior so that it still kills the whole enemy team, but you don't get credit for the kills--thus the only incentive to use it is if it helps your team, not to run up your own points.

    3. In Boxy, the GMs and SWs are shot-limited. Maybe the super-weapon in the middle in place of the G flag is the regular kind of GM or SW, that lives until you die or jettison it. Those would still be very powerful, but wouldn't prey on the lack of teamwork that goes on to the degree that geno does. Or, a GM or SW that has longer range.

    4. As I wrote before, a change in the team flag capping behavior that promotes more focus on CTF and less on FFA, such as:
    • a. You get credit for all the kills when you cap a flag, just like you do if you geno;
      b. You lose one additional point above and beyond being killed every time the enemy caps your flag
    Really, my thinking is, in CTF, why should you get 12 points for getting the G flag and zero for capping, when the goal is CTF?

    5. I never liked the idea that you could drop your own flag on a "bad surface" and return it home... It should be just as hard getting that darn thing back home as it was for the one who went in and got it out.
Just thinkin' out loud...
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Post by dartman »

Sky King wrote:Just thinkin' out loud...
in the thread about my Boxy Wars strategy. ;) Seriously, these are good thoughts and all, but it's stealing the topic.
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Post by gravityfromdresden »

hmm mack to your 5man startagy... it sound quiete interesting since already one cloacked person in the ememy base can do outstanding damage! but consider the chance of TK! i always tend to kill myself in there becasue i shot like crazy! what would be the chance of killing teammembers occasionally? the chance to do so is high!
why not send ONE tank inside the base center and let him grab laser, while other 3 wait outside??? well, just think about the accidents that happen wehn you have to shoot at base with 4 people around ya!

PS: HINT! i don't know if it works for you all but try listening to some techno music while playing Boxy wars, or any music with a constent and repeating Beat! it helps me a lot!
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Post by G-MAN »

I need to make a stragety for Boxy Wars. I get to -20 in about a minute. I think Dartman's will do just fine :D
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Post by tw1sted »

G-MAN wrote:I need to make a stragety for Boxy Wars. I get to -20 in about a minute. I think Dartman's will do just fine :D
go get cloking (spelling is wrong), and go down to the center and find G and go kill the other team... works for me. i usually have around 15 or so doing that
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Post by dartman »

gravityfromdresden wrote:hmm mack to your 5man startagy... it sound quiete interesting since already one cloacked person in the ememy base can do outstanding damage! but consider the chance of TK! i always tend to kill myself in there becasue i shot like crazy! what would be the chance of killing teammembers occasionally? the chance to do so is high!
That's why there's more than one. They're back-up.
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Post by G-MAN »

Seriously, yes!! Now I won't be in the negatives anymore!! Here's a simple stragety: get to the center and laser sniper everybody. lol
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Post by Sky King »

I think if you're going to try the dartman cloak attack, you might want to consider two things...

1. Cycle in/cycle out... don't have all 4 go in at once... 2 go in, the other two wait outside and kill the escapees that are going nuts to get out frantically; when the interior CL on one side gets killed, the outside CL on that side hops in.

2. Do what the real Army does...have fire controls in place... in Boxy, that means vertically... I take the ground floor and can kill anything there... you take the mezzanine level, and you can kill anything there... Bill takes the upper sniper deck, and can kill anything there... you agree in advance that if anyone is killed in a lower level, you each move down one to fill in, until you all are dead. That way, no TKs.
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Post by Joe-Schmoe »

I have seen this strategy used against me, and it is pretty rough to defeat, even if you see it coming.

I don't think Tking is a huge problem, if the players are experienced enough you should be able to succed 2 out of 3 times.

The only problem I see is that the player who grabs the flag won't be cloaked anymore. Once he leaves the enemies base, the 4 others should be able to hold back the other team but escaping with the flag is pretty hard.

Then again, some teams like to put the flag up high near the top of their base, which IMO makes it much easier to get.
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Post by dartman »

Yeah, there's a better revised version I thought up. I'll just mention the revisions, not go through the whole thing again.

First, everyone has to choose what role to play before the plan is executed. People in squads are organized next to their squadmate on the sides of the base. It matters where you are: the inner squadmate (the one closest to the imaginary center "line" of the map) is the one who's going to go inside the enemy base and raid it. The outer one stands guard outside to watch for any enemy tanks coming to or going from the enemy base. The 5th guy, the one who captures the flag at the end, still has his posistion taking cover behind one of those "pyramids" (more like giant triangular prisms) on top if the base. This is to avoid incoming fire from the same spot on the enemy base.

The next revision you might've already guessed. Once the two squads reach the enemy base, instead of everyone coming inside, they split off. The inner squadmates head inside the base while the outer ones stand guard outside.

Next up is this: If you die, just keep it coming and continue the assault. No need to restart the plan. Just keep coming up to grab CL, and enter their base the same way you did before you died.

The final revision is my solution to the problem Joe-Schmoe mentioned above. When the 5th guy comes and grabs the flag, all the other people in the plan, along with the other members who are probably inside the base, cover him.

So there ya go.

P.S. @ Joe-Schmoe: Was I on when you had to face the attack? if so, chances are I was commanding it. ;)
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Post by Joe-Schmoe »

P.S. @ Joe-Schmoe: Was I on when you had to face the attack? if so, chances are I was commanding it.
I didn't check, sorry. All I know is that there were 2 teams of 2 cloakers headed at the base at the same time. 8) [/quote]
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One shot geno on Boxy?

Post by Bisque »

Some great ideas Sky King. Hey you call out your intentions I'll do my best
to help, I'm all about the team. As far as score the thing that is important to
me is having 0 tks, anymore than that and I start feeling lame. Problem is
as things are now the best thing I can do for team is control Geno. Geno is
much more powerful than ctf, you get the effect of 3 ctf's with skill. What if
Geno only gave you one shot then flag dropped? I imagine this would be
an easy change.

Thanks for the map,
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Post by pulco-citron »

Sky King wrote:Meteorite, thanks for chiming in on this...

Having played a lot of boxy now, and having experimented with a lot of different approaches over the past month, here's some more thoughts:
  • 1. Does there have to be some super-duper flag in the middle? Why would the geno have to be replaced by SB, or another super-flag? (I think SB would be BRUTAL in boxy!)
Some other thougthts, many of which won't work because current server code may not allow them, and they may not even be possible through plug-ins:
  • 2. A double-edged geno flag... If you hit someone, you kill their whole team. But wait... If YOU get hit while you are holding it, it kills YOUR whole team... makes you think twice about whether you want to go for it.

    2b. Change geno bahavior so that it still kills the whole enemy team, but you don't get credit for the kills--thus the only incentive to use it is if it helps your team, not to run up your own points.

    3. In Boxy, the GMs and SWs are shot-limited. Maybe the super-weapon in the middle in place of the G flag is the regular kind of GM or SW, that lives until you die or jettison it. Those would still be very powerful, but wouldn't prey on the lack of teamwork that goes on to the degree that geno does. Or, a GM or SW that has longer range.

    4. As I wrote before, a change in the team flag capping behavior that promotes more focus on CTF and less on FFA, such as:
    • a. You get credit for all the kills when you cap a flag, just like you do if you geno;
      b. You lose one additional point above and beyond being killed every time the enemy caps your flag
    Really, my thinking is, in CTF, why should you get 12 points for getting the G flag and zero for capping, when the goal is CTF?

    5. I never liked the idea that you could drop your own flag on a "bad surface" and return it home... It should be just as hard getting that darn thing back home as it was for the one who went in and got it out.
Just thinkin' out loud...
My opinions :
2. I must confess I hate geno, thats' a flag I never use (I'm one of the weird guys on Boxy that drops a G for an OO), as I don't like the idea of dying because of the worst player in the team regardless of all my efforts. Thus I find that your idea "improves" the flag.

2.b. I still don't like the geno, but if others are less eager to get it, I consider that an improvement :)

4.a. I often "cap" by picking up the enemy flag on the fresh corpse of a dead teammate and finishing the job. I don't deserve 12 points for that :)
You could think of a more elaborate rewarding scheme (quake-like) where players get different amount of points for carrying, defending the carrier, killing an ennemy carrier, etc.... but maybe that's a bit too complicated for bzflag.
5. I don't like it either, but I think the problem is technical.


As Bisque suggests, putting a 1 shot limit on geno seems to be more than enough (if you ask me, replace it with a 10 shot-limited SB)
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Post by gravitydestroyer »

back to topic: boxs's staragys.

1: go to roof, get cloacking. jump to center:
a:if you get geno, good luck, use it
b: ig u get OO go to enemy base, grab laser and kill,kill,kill...

2: grab laser and snipe, i made in one day 13 points without being killed ( but than came the TKler :( )

3: stratagys that i dont think are any good ( after trying them myself)
a: use cloaking and go to enemy base --> bad because in enemy base the bullets bounce off walls and 1: you kill yourself, 2: against pro gamers CL doesn't help

b: SW is only good in center, but if you take it, than do following, stand in center and face out since once in a while ST drop in.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Big debated topic: use of geno:

pro: it brings lots of points
all enemys are killed

contra: killing teammates really sucks since you kill your team !!!
only 3 shots
3 slow shots
hard to get geno flag in first plase

conclusion: to all beginnes: stay away, you just will waste a flag
to all pros: try to be fair and dont go on killing the enemy team every 3 sec, it spoils the game
overall: geno rocks but carefull, it is frustrating to be in a 15man team with 14 nooby who get genoed every 3 sec.
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