New Silly Cup

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sillysir
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New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:15 am

So I know everyone is probably stimulated enough by the upcoming Rikers and soon ChesVal, but I would really like to pursue another chance. The cup was my first time organizing any event and I have learned a lot about what needs to be done for success. So, I would appreciate if you guys could help me out and give feedback so we can make another, better, silly cup. :)

Well, to start, I think the problems with the cup were:
  1. 1) Not enough players knew the cup existed.
    2) I did not give enough time for people to sign up and recognize the process of the cup.
    3) The dates and time of each match were not notified far enough in advanced.
    4) Subbing was unfair and unpredictable...and with 4 players per team, many subs were needed.
    5) 5 matches are too many. We should aim for a maximum of 3.
    6) Matches were overall unfair...however the goal of having the final match relatively fair was accomplished. (Team D wasn't a bad competitor, if only people showed up, the rematch with Team C could have been interesting.)
Problems 1-3 were all my fault as I rushed the cup to try and get it done before the holidays. And I didn't have an understanding of how to organize the matches, so I kinda changed the process several times. So, for this next cup, I'm gonna layout everything in detail for certain in the FAQ page and make sure to publicize and give plenty of time. Easy fix.

Subbing was diffidently an issue. Some subs were not as good (skill/connection/etc) as the player who should have been playing. Plus, some subs were better than other subs, but I had it organized so the first to sign up always went first. Perhaps this should be arranged ahead of time, perhaps by 'captains'. Also there were several times when not all of the subs showed up, and we had to use observers, which was even more unpredictable...but this goes back to not giving enough time and notice.

So the 5 match, 4 teams, was kinda too much for everyone to keep track of and desire to accomplish. And because of the randomized 4 player teams, the matches were not close at all. Thus, I have come up with a few IDEAS on how to structure the tournament.

Idea 1:
  1. The same concept of 4 random teams remain. The first 2 teams match and the last 2 teams match. (A vs B,C vs D). However, instead of winner/losers match, we combine the winner and losers to make for a fair final match. So the winner of A vs B AND the loser of C vs D combine to make 1 team. Then the winner of C vs D AND the loser of A vs B combine to make 1 team. Those 2 teams match in the 3rd, final match. Winner of that match is declared champions.
    Click here for a visual.

    Problems I see are 1) Lots of people in the final match we will be dependent on to make it fair/complete. 2) Lack of competition...no real "teams". But that said, my other idea is...
Idea 2:
  1. We keep it simple and original, 4 teams play each other as regular (A vs B, C vs D). Then simply have the winners compete to be declared "Best Champions", then have the losers compete to be declared the "Silliest Champions", so 3 matches total (2 matches may be played at once) but overall 2 titles declared.
    Click here for a visual.

    If and when we figure out a fun system for this cup that is constant and efficient(which is possible), we should have the opportunity to make the cup 3,4 times a year, if we want. But to keep a good competition, we could have the teams of the first cup remain. Then let those 2 teams either have other players add on or just remove original players. But those teams would remain for several cups. This could increase competition to see who can improve the most.
So, what does everyone think?
silly :P

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:07 pm

I forgot to mention that the number of players per team could be changed. I think 4 players worked fairly well last event, but we did have some issues with people showing up. If we went with the first idea of combining the two teams, each team would need to be 5 players or smaller.

Any feedback would be appreciated. :)
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by mr64bit » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:46 pm

http://challonge.com is a great place for brackets, if you're interested. You can update them in real time as well.
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by Snake12534 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:56 am

I would like to start off by saying that the reasons you had mentioned to why the cup went wrong are pretty accurate. But the cup was actually pretty fair.. if there were not as many subs. They were definitely too many subs, but it wasn't your fault that most of the original players did not show up. They were a few times that the match dates were announce a bit too early in advance, but that final C vs D match was announce much earlier. Maybe the players forgot? Either way, many players do not check the forums. I suggest you assign players in a "group" that will be the advertisers. These people are active with the forums, and will be able to inform other players about the event overall, and it's match dates. This is a solution to the "not many people knew about the cup" since not many people check the forums, or the website unless they are told to in person on bzflag. As for your ideas.. they sound well planned but I would like to state that the ideas may not be strong enough for a redesigned cup. First off, I strongly suggest we do not do idea 1; "Idea 1:
The same concept of 4 random teams remain. The first 2 teams match and the last 2 teams match. (A vs B,C vs D). However, instead of winner/losers match, we combine the winner and losers to make for a fair final match. So the winner of A vs B AND the loser of C vs D combine to make 1 team. Then the winner of C vs D AND the loser of A vs B combine to make 1 team. Those 2 teams match in the 3rd, final match. Winner of that match is declared champions. "

This may be not looked upon since there is no loyalty being actually played well in this game. Even though it may increase fairness, don't you think there's a possibility of a team talking in team chat, "let's fail so we team up with the good team," or it may decrease loyalty with additional members.

Here is what you suggested for idea 2; "Idea 2:
We keep it simple and original, 4 teams play each other as regular (A vs B, C vs D). Then simply have the winners compete to be declared "Best Champions", then have the losers compete to be declared the "Silliest Champions", so 3 matches total (2 matches may be played at once) but overall 2 titles declared."

This actually sounds a bit interesting, but how do we know this is an accurate solution to our last problem? It may be harder for people to show up, and putting on two finals at once if you plan to do so may make the observers harder to choose which match to watch. If you do not put the finals at the same time, the cup will take at least four matches to complete, resulting in a circle with the old cup.

Here is what I suggest should happen:

We still keep it original, and like you said, we change it to 5 matches to 3 matches. Only one team will be declare Silly Cup Champs. The first two matches may be 20 minutes and the last match may be 30 minutes, just to finish this cup in one day, (since it was very successful the first day we did the first cup.) We create a team of "notifiers" that will notify everyone who doesn't know when or what the cup is. Maybe up to 6 - 10 people? Doesn't really matter. We then use the same system to get players, first come first serve. However, the matches should be only three players maximum each team, increasing this number will increase the chances of more subs. So, a maximum of 12 people for this cup may be a good number. With a maximum of 12 subs that are ready to sub right away. What modifies the game to a less interesting scale is when too many subs are being used. We should make it so each team must have at least three of their original players to start the match. And to your final problem, "Matches were overall unfair," I think this shouldn't be changed, it should be randomly chosen. The first matches be unfair, but it will get more exciting toward the end where the fairness stays the same. This is just my suggestion, thanks and I hope you consider it! Give me feedback.

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:19 am

Snake12534 wrote:We still keep it original, and like you said, we change it to 5 matches to 3 matches. Only one team will be declare Silly Cup Champs.
Seems reasonable. My original idea of the 5 matches was to make it more fair, but in the end, it was unnecessary. So, lets try just 3 matches (A vs B, C vs D, Winner vs Winner).
Snake12534 wrote:The first two matches may be 20 minutes and the last match may be 30 minutes, just to finish this cup in one day, (since it was very successful the first day we did the first cup.)
It WAS successful the first day and the first 3 matches. Thus, I see no reason why to not make every match 30 minutes. Many don't like short matches, I mean the 10 minute difference allows so much more opportunity to change the game. Works best for the Riker/ChesVal.
Snake12534 wrote:However, the matches should be only three players maximum each team, increasing this number will increase the chances of more subs.
Yes, the more players playing means more subs...but the less players playing, the less awareness/care, the less fair. Last cup had 4 players, which is considered small, and deceasing this number wouldn't make much of a difference. But as we saw in the cup, small matches ended up with more dependency on original players and overall unfair matches. Thus, I would suggest we raise the number to 7 or 8. I would like to try even 10 players per team, but unless we can really ramp up the publicity and participation within this cup, there would be lots of problems.

I mean after all, one reason why the Riker cup is such a big and noticeable event is because 20 players are playing at once...and many more are awaiting to sub. With so many players participating, friends of friends will find out and gu teams will be full of participation within the cup. I remember the first day of the silly cup, very few people knew about it, and during the 3 matches (which seemed like success), well there were several other servers that had official/fun matches going on. But on the big events of the Riker, nobody wants/can participate in another match because so many people are involved with the cup. Thus, I believe the more players, the better. But we have to limit this to around 7 players until the cup receives a lot of recognition.

Now, the more players we have, the more subs needed. But this problem SHOULD solve itself because as I said, the players participating would eventually share it to their friends and team, thus giving more recognition, thus getting more people to sign up, thus more people should be ready to sub. Also, because we would need many more subs, I suggest planning the subs before the matches, and giving each sub a team. But this process takes time, and thats something I did not allow for, so this next cup, I am going to give at least several weeks for sign up, probably a month or longer.
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by Snake12534 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:04 am

Before I write anything long, which I will tomorrow morning :), I would like to quickly point off that the date of the rikers was announced publically to forum members and bzflag members orther than rikers players under two weeks in advance. I suggest a long waiting time is not obligatory unless it is passing through holidays or major events, I believe you would just need a couple active and determined players to share the idea quickly and thoroughly.
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:12 pm

Ok, I would like to get this going, so here is how the new silly cup would work:

This next, new, cup will be called Silly Cup 1 and the past cup referred to as prequel or test cup.
This cup will be made of 4 teams and 3 matches.

Match 1: Team A vs Team B
Match 2: Team C vs Team D
Match 3: Winner Match 1 vs Winner Match 2

Match 3 winner is declared Silly Cup Champions.

A team is a group of players that are randomly selected from the sign up. Teams will be as big as we can once sign up has ended.

Once the sign up has reached 25 players, those first 25 players will be randomly put into one of the four teams, which make 5 players per team. After that, every time the sign up gets 4 new players, those players will be randomly added to a team. The maximum is 40 players. Any player that signs up after number 40 will be placed into the substitute group regardless.

Any player that signs up 7 or less days before sign up ends will be placed into the substitute group. If the substitute group becomes bigger than the current team player count, then the subs will be added at random to a team.
For example: If there are 30 players signed up 2 weeks before sign up ends, then the team player count would be 6 (30 players, 4 teams, 6 players each). So if the sub group consists of 7 players or more, than the first 4 players will be randomly added to a team.

Once sign up ends, the substitute group are divided into teams. If there are not enough players to perfectly make 4 teams, then the remainder will be for any team.

Once teams/subs are formed, the date and time of the first match will be decided 2 weeks or more in advance. Match 2 will be scheduled directly after, and match 3 scheduled directly after match 2.

Once scheduled and up to the start of the first match, teams will be able to choose which subs, that were placed to their teams, they want to have sub first. So if playerA, playerB, playerC, playerD were assigned from the substitute group to team A, team A has the OPTION to say they want playerC to sub first if s/he can, then playerB or they can say playerD then any sub. To keep it fair and nice, teams are only able to choose the first 2 subs, after that its based on who signed up first. The default sub list is based on first comes, first serve.

Each match is 30 minutes long. If a match results in a tie, a 20 minute rematch is to be played. If that rematch results in a tie and is part of the final match, then the cup is declared a tie. But if that rematch results in a tie and is either part of match 1 or 2, then a coin is flipped.

During game play, the game is to only be paused for 1) Lack of players, 2) Server wide issues. (If everyone suddenly gains 100ms and it doesn't go away). If any player is unable to play for any reason, a sub will replace that player without stopping the match. All subs are to self kill immediately after first spawn.

If for instance, Team A doesn't have any subs show up, then first, any remainder/random subs will be able to play. If none of them are available, then any sub will be able to play. If no subs who signed up are available to play, then the game pauses and the team who lacks a player can choose any observer, who wants to play, as a sub.

If an original player is either late or was subbed then becomes available, that original player is able to replace the sub of their choice from their team. If an original player or a sub needs to be replaced twice, they will be ineligible to play for the remainder of the match unless there are no other options.

Since each team will only play a maximum of 2 matches, a sub may only sub again when all available subs have played.

I will condense this to an FAQ and make it easier to understand. It seems complicated and a lot going on, but its rather simple, especially since most of it will be automatic. But what do you think? I think it solves almost all of the previous problems, but I'm sure new problems will arise.
silly :P

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by An SQUERRILz » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:14 pm

TLDR; 25 / 4 = 5
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:14 am

lol well ok.

I have updated the website, here.

Sign up is now open. The earlier you sign up, the more you play.
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by macsforme » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:18 am

If you do not announce the date and time of the tournament prior to registration then how will people know whether they will be available to play?

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:40 pm

You're right, constitution, but the problem, not many people know or care about this cup. So if I go ahead and set a date now, which I will, then if people aren't able to attend, they won't sign up in the first place. But the problem is if people don't sign up, then we don't have enough players to make any of the matches regardless. Plus, if people sign up, then we are more likely to be flexible with the schedule (meaning if many people who signed up couldn't make it to the posted date, then we could delay till the next week).

I will go ahead and set the date of the first match to be played on Saturday, February 8, 2014 @ 19:00 (UTC). Please sign up regardless of your availability. If it helps for the majority to change this date, then we will.
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by macsforme » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:14 pm

Isn't it going to hurt your event worse for players who registered not to show, than to have too few players sign up to begin with?

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:33 am

So the cup is only 1 week away. We have 25 players signed up in the Waiting List. Thus, I have made an unofficial team list. Teams were created at random but were modified a few times to try and keep things fair. Mythic and zar have helped with that. So, my goal right now is to finish things off and officially post the teams/times/details by Monday and send players a message.

One of the tasks is to make sure we have a proper server available for the match. In the last cup, bzb 58 seemed to work well with minimal lag issues. However, this time, we do have more players and a few more distant players. And although I have tried my best to inform everyone about the silly cup, some may still not realize when/where its happening. So, I was wondering if there would be a way we can have a server setup to display "Silly Cup" in the server listings. Perhaps if its named that, we could prevent some random players interfering. And since a few admins did sign up, I think I can safely expect some admins present to help out?
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by blast » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:13 am

If you haven't already, I'd recommend you talk directly with the server owners you'd like to host the custom labeled server(s).
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:15 pm

Ok, since the past few days I have been rather annoyed and upset about how the silly cup went. I hate to make it such a big deal, but I tried my best. It seemed as if the event was favored by most, yet during the event, it seemed as if nobody wanted it. Its fine if you don't want the tournament or think its a bad idea, but please, don't waste my time. And if you would like to see this event happen again, then you need to act on it. That silly cup, which was actually the second event, was a failure and it was mocked by an fm the night after. And it was a failure because nobody tried other than me. Its impossible for me to organize such an event without anyone helping. And I am not just talking about admins being present, I am talking about helping from day 1 to the end. I am talking about helping with making the tournament process, help spread the word, help remind people, help teach people about the tournament, help setting up teams, help gathering people when the event starts, help making sure people play in the right teams, help with subbing, help with match to match, help with stats/website info, help with so much more. In order to organize such an event, I need total support by multiple people. And don't ever tell me that it was my fault for not directly asking for help, because I have done my part by posting on these forums, creating a website, talking to a few admins, talking to as many players as possible, and so many more efforts. In the end, it all comes down to what the community gives back from my efforts.

I could go on and rant for much longer, but I'll just stop and say that I am done with the tournament until someone would actually like to do it.
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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by slime » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:47 pm

Instead of taking the time to blame everyone else, take the time to reflect on what went well and what didn't. Ask yourself why these things happened. You did this very well after the first SillyCup, so now that you have attempted to fix certain things and it still didn't go as you planned, it is time to ask deeper questions.
-If you knew how much effort planning this tournament took (which I would assume you did, as this is the second one you've hosted), why did you proceed with the second without making sure you had specific people willing to provide that full help and support?
-Why did the SillyCup fail but an fm didn't? (Also, I find it very hard to believe an fm was created to mock you and the SillyCup.)
-Is a tournament during the middle of a semester of school a good idea? (There is a good reason the Riker/Chesval is only biannual and held during either around Winter break or Summer break.)
-Was the concept of the SillyCup something revolutionary, something that gets the community hyped up and talking about it on their own?

Naturally there are many more questions as well.

As for some constructive feedback, if the SillyCup did not work out in your eyes, but an fm did, perhaps try arranging something with fm's. Maybe arrange a time and date with a server owner to set up a big 20v20 server, and advertise huge fm's to be played for 2 hours. This way, people can basically come and go as they please, they won't be forced into a time commitment, and you would have to do minimal work.

*I was taught this by a great writing teacher in high school - When you have an idea for a story and write some of it, sometimes it just doesn't read like you originally thought it would. It happens. But one of the hardest things to do as a writer is simply scrap the idea and start over with something fresh, because you want to try as hard as you can to make it work. Yet sometimes it is better to start over with a fresh idea, you'd be surprised how quickly you forget about the last idea once fresh ideas start rolling in.
**Please understand I'm not suggesting this to criticize you or your tournament, or discourage you from hosting a third SillyCup. You are ONE OF the few people in GU taking it upon themselves to really set up cool events for the community besides the two major tournaments. I hope you will take the time and learn from these experiences.

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by An SQUERRILz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:56 pm

I don't have much time so I'll split out the idea but forgive my directness.
Not sure you understand the GU community well.
Firstly people who promise to turn up then don't - well that happens in Riker so expect it.
Secondly you don't seem to take into account time zones - you can predict fairly well who is never going to make it because they are just never on at that time; they might not realise themselves because.
You didn't let in casuals and you severely overestimated the ratio of those who show up vs the need for subs to fill in the imbalances.
Whoever helped you choose fair teams. Well everyone knew it was unfair.
You say some people you questioned said they want 4s and not 10s. Well I don't care what they said, everyone loves 10s because they haven't played it before. And guess what, the people who said they want 4s probably didn't even show up - they just thought 4s was a good size for a tournament in their mind, but when you take into account that the teams you assign are unlikely to show up as-is, then their theoretical preference for 4s is void because they didn't get to practice with who they thought their team would be. Most people who are available to play at the time would want to join a 10s, far less a 4s. You also forget the bystanders who didn't sign up - at every Silly Cup there is at least 50% of online GU players who weren't playing in it.
The signups isn't working for you.
There is a reason why when Silly Cup match is about to start everyone's thinking "let's just FM". They're right there ready to play and you say no this is my event I want a tournament. Tournament implies teamwork and progression. But really can we just play a 10s.

So if anything I was disappointed in you for not learning anything from Silly Cup 1. Slime has some good advice. As for you needing help/support, well you seemed oblivious to my suggestions so if you're going to organize it in a way that I don't think will work, naturally I can't help you.

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by macsforme » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Why do you consider it a failure? The first two matches did happen, at least (if the teams were shuffled around a little bit). People participated and enjoyed it. Also, why aren't the results posted on the site?

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Re: New Silly Cup

Post by sillysir » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:36 am

In my eyes, the point of the silly cup was to 1) Have fun, 2) Increase activity, 3) Allow regular players to participate in competition. In my eyes, I believe it failed because 1) It had no organization (there was no structure during the event), 2) Barely anyone showed up, 3) It was not a competition or anything lasting.

I realize I shouldn't be blaming anyone but myself, so sorry.

Thing is, before the event was ever announced, I had posted all my thoughts, all my ideas and a detailed paragraph that explained the entire process. Since no one really gave feedback to any of that, I stuck with my original idea. But now, after the event failed in my eyes, people are coming to me and pinpointing every failure of my system. Where was this kinda feedback before the event? I am smart enough to figure out what worked and didn't work, so don't tell me about the failures, instead try and help by giving ideas.

Also, do not try and tell me the date/time/notice/scheduling was the problem, because I followed the Riker's. I know who was able to be there or who wasn't, but the problem was nobody cared enough to show up. So, please, do not talk to me about that issue anymore.

As to the website, I have not posted the stats because I am not even sure what the results were. Team C was the only one I could call a team, out of 4. And I feel the same way about the last cup I did, they both lack enough consistency to post results.

Also, this was the second event I had tried. If you were part or read anything about the first one I had tried, you should notice that I had improved many of the previous failures. However, of course, new failures occurred. So, I am trying to improve, I am scrutinizing the event, but there are only so many attempts I can do before I and everyone else gives up. Even if I were to make another event, I know that many of the previous players will not show up because they know the event has failed twice. I lost people from the first event, and I am bound to lose even more people from the second event.

And listen, if you want another event, I need to know people want it to happen. And I will need ideas, because I have tried twice now, and both of my systems failed.
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