A question to the Council

Please discuss issues concerning the Ducati League here. This is the liaison between league players and the league council.
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Valumzie
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A question to the Council

Post by Valumzie » Sat May 20, 2006 10:28 am

Dear Council,

First of all, I would like to thank you all for taking time (and probably quite a lot of time for most of you) to think, discuss and try to reorganise and save the league.
This work is highly appreciated and from reading the forums, it seems that lots of important points are being discussed, analysed with different angles, and so on.

However, there is one subject I see nowhere on the duccouncil forum or on the ducati league discussion forum: How do we deal with some things that have happened?With some behaviours that have been "adopted" by some players?



Run ahead and blind oneself to what happened previously under the pretext that the league needs to look forward and not backward will surely not help for long.
It can help, but in an artificial way only. Putting what disturbs at the far bottom of a cupboard is a short-sighted solution. Bring things out and decide to face them and deal with them eventually would be a better way to construct something better for the future.
It is true that we should not grow bitter over events that happened, but that's what you're actually creating by ignoring those past events. I'm sorry to repeat something probably well-known by all of you, but lines really have been crossed in terms of respect towards others, of manipulating sayings, of wanting to crash some people whatever the means used may be. Are we to remain totally passive to that?

When the council was first created, I had that optimistic hope that it would be taking care of two things:
1) find new ideas for the league; try to fight against the inactivity problems, etc.
and
2) talk about what happened and take some decisions.
Where are those decisions? When I asked what was going to happen to those players that had gone too far (and not for the first time), all I could hear was : "Let the council be created and they will deal with it". But what is the council doing about that now?

By refusing to face those problems, by making as if they didn't exist (that's the impression you give at least by saying nothing about those), you are surely not contributing to saving the League.
People are disappointed above all, but might also grow bitter and not see the point anymore in all this masquerade.


I truely hope things will be finally dealt with. Giving second chances to people is a good philosophy, but how many second chances should they have? Is this concept some kind of indefinite one?


Val

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Thonolan
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Post by Thonolan » Sat May 20, 2006 5:41 pm

It s is nice to see that a few people dont use the double standards. Thanks Valerie for that topic. It was needed for a long time and maybe now it stop the famous "dont beat around the bush".

Thonolan

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Post by tokimi » Sun May 21, 2006 5:48 am

To valumz,

Though I am not a council member, nor privvy to their conversations, I an
interested observer of the happenings in the league. After reading your
letter, I had a few questions that I could not figure out. You ask for both
visible activity from the council (ie news, or new actions) and those are very
fair questions. You also discuss taking disciplinary action against past
deeds, and thats where I would like to ask some questions.

For one, I am surprised you are calling so harshly on the council so early in
the game. It hasn't been in existence very long and should be given the
chance, at leased I am willing to give them all a chance to see if any thing
can be done. As kierra stated in the early days of the council, things
should be taken slowly and surely. I was an advocate for making decision's
early and get things on the roll, but as you can see my type was not chosen
for the council.
DarthValou wrote: Run ahead and blind oneself to what happened previously under the pretext that
the league needs to look forward and not backward will surely not help for
long.
It can help, but in an artificial way only. Putting what disturbs at the far
bottom of a cupboard is a short-sighted solution. Bring things out and decide
to face them and deal with them eventually would be a better way to construct
something better for the future.
How do you know if the council is ignoring the past? I certainly don't, and the
council is under a confidentiality blanket so I don't know any one who will or can
talk about what really is going on in the council meetings. HoW is already gone,
and Death Barrel has all but left to different places. I really don't see how
the council can be called blind to the past. I may be missing some fact or a
statement of logic, maybe more explanation for me could help out.
DarthValou wrote: 1) find new ideas for the league; try to fight against the inactivity problems, etc.
Yup, we have lots of those ideas floating around, and many of them are very
promising indeed! I am very happy to see my ideas thrown out for even better
ones, and further fine tuning until these things are fully implementable. So
far, we can even try out 6vs6 ducati! Thats allot of fun if you haven't tried it
btw :)
DarthValou wrote: 2) talk about what happened and take some decisions.
Where are those decisions? When I asked what was going to happen to those
players that had gone too far (and not for the first time), all I could hear
was : "Let the council be created and they will deal with it". But what is the
council doing about that now?
Until they (the council) makes their move, it very much is our job to sit
tight and try to make the best of things. I have tried to push the council,
by posts and talking with as many council members as I can, into doing some
actions. But just because they don't appear to be doing any thing, that can't
mean that they are not doing any thing at all, can it? As I stated earlier,
the council is fairly new, especially with respect to the age of the league.
So correct me if I am wrong, but is it not still early in the game to loose
hope and abandon ducati league for IFL or OL?

I am hopeful that things will work out, what else can I do! I have spent
many, many hours working on ideas to help out, and devoted time and effort to
doing my best to make things work. So to start to see people loose hope now
really is disheartening for me. Especially you valumz, your a great gal and
are not a stranger to the league. I am saddened to see you leave BZI, I am
sure every one in the team misses you greatly.

Please just give it time, they have an uphill battle to fight, and the enemy is
deeply entrenched.

respectfully,
toki
The very young do not always do as they are told, and the very old never listen any way.

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menotume
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Post by menotume » Sun May 21, 2006 4:32 pm

tokimi wrote:Until they (the council) makes their move, it very much is our job to sit
tight and try to make the best of things.
Partially true, but really, the council needs to hear more from the players. We are getting a lot of good feedback here now, but the more the better. We REALLY want the players to drive our issues and decisions as much as possible.

I don't think that it's the council's job to create issues for discussion if they don't come from the players first, so I am glad that valumz brought this up :)

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Re: A question to the Council

Post by SportChick » Mon May 22, 2006 6:19 am

DarthValou wrote:However, there is one subject I see nowhere on the duccouncil forum or on the ducati league discussion forum: How do we deal with some things that have happened?With some behaviours that have been "adopted" by some players?
menotume wrote:[T]he council needs to hear more from the players. We are getting a lot of good feedback here now, but the more the better. We REALLY want the players to drive our issues and decisions as much as possible.
In addition to wanting to hear issues from the players, we find it helpful to hear potential solutions as well. In the event someone misbehaves, what do you, the players, think should happen to that person? Clearly, many factors must be taken into account, but what is the range of actions that should be taken?
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Post by birdie » Mon May 22, 2006 8:28 am

Tokimi said:
HoW is already gone,
and Death Barrel has all but left to different places. I really don't see how
the council can be called blind to the past. I may be missing some fact or a
statement of logic, maybe more explanation for me could help out.
Dont forget that the council had nothing to do with this. HoW was deleted manually by Death Barrel. The council (as far as I understood, I can be wrong) wasnt planning to do anything I think. They were propably waiting till "something happened AGAIN" before they would have taken action.

So I dont see any action at all from the council to the behavour from some people in the past and stuff that happened, and thats exactly Darthvalou her point.

birdie
Last edited by birdie on Mon May 22, 2006 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chtibidasse
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Re: A question to the Council

Post by chtibidasse » Mon May 22, 2006 9:23 am

SportChick wrote:In the event someone misbehaves, what do you, the players, think should happen to that person? Clearly, many factors must be taken into account, but what is the range of actions that should be taken?
I maybe look like the fool who tries to take part in a serious discussion, but please consider this:

:arrow: A "shame flag". I have read this some times ago on the forums but cannot find it again. It was a suggestion for a new flag; the holder of this flag would have funny colors, make a stupid sound when firing and so other things like that.

It would:
1) Make the tank more attractive to shoot at, and maybe more easy to hit. This is a serious punishment for peolpe who don't like to loose...

2) put shame on the flag holder. Especially if he wears a message saying "I'm a *insert the text you want...*".

I don't know how (and even IF...) this could be possible, but I'm a player, not a dev'... So I TALK and let the serious people DO. :P

Many things are to be discussed about this for a practical use, but what do you think about the idea?

Chtibidasse :turtle:

edit: I didn't think carrying ALWAYS such a flag (or dunce cap...), but just for a limited period of playing. This should allow people to start a new BZ-life after a while.
Last edited by chtibidasse on Tue May 23, 2006 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A question to the Council

Post by goblin » Mon May 22, 2006 10:11 am

chtibidasse wrote: :arrow: A "shame flag".
I like the idea!
But could we please make it a large pointy hat saying "Dunce", and also put a big, red clown nose on the cannons tip too?!?
:-D
Tank you!

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Re: A question to the Council

Post by goblin » Mon May 22, 2006 10:37 am

SportChick wrote: In addition to wanting to hear issues from the players, we find it helpful to hear potential solutions as well. In the event someone misbehaves, what do you, the players, think should happen to that person? Clearly, many factors must be taken into account, but what is the range of actions that should be taken?
I think it's important to to keep actions against misbehaviour as close to the misbehaving party as possible, for as long as possible.
If everything is bumped up to the council immediately, you'll drown.

There are, as far as I can see, 4 dimensions of action severity:
  • Who is "punished"
    Where they're "punished"
    How long are they "punished"
    Type of "punishment"
:arrow: Who: The misbehaving player, The team of the misbehaving player
:arrow: Where: The server where player misbehaved, all servers in league
:arrow: How long: x minutes, duration of game, x hours of game time, three months, this season, for ever...
:arrow: Type: Shame flag/dunce hat, banned from game, banned from server, banned from league.

So if someone makes a mistake, dunce hat for a while for that player will do. If he's continuing to do wrong, warn the team and let the team leader take action. If the team fails to stop him, there's a problem with the team, so a ban of the entire team is appropriate.

And so on...

The more servere the "punishment", the closer to the council the decision should be. Dunce hat could be given by players or referee, banning from league forever can only be done by council.
Tank you!

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Re: A question to the Council

Post by mistake » Tue May 23, 2006 1:08 am

:arrow: A "shame flag". I have read this some times ago on the forums but cannot find it again. It was a suggestion for a new flag; the holder of this flag would have funny colors, make a stupid sound when firing and so other things like that.
That's wrebbels famouse humiliation flag, not that you have noticed, i had it since month.
mistake

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