Oh

Please discuss issues concerning the Ducati League here. This is the liaison between league players and the league council.
Post Reply
mistake
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:12 am

Oh

Post by mistake » Tue May 23, 2006 1:31 am

You may delete this post if you think it is completely unfit.

After so many debates and ideas proposed, what we have is a poll about match length.

Players have given a lot of input. And i say a lot. The league is dying. All the good players have either:

- teamed up in one team
- left
- stopped matching

If nobody can aproach each other in any way, i say we just leave it at that. Please council, show your vision of the league, we have shown ours. Handing out baloons to newb teams or making the league more arbitrary is not enough in my opinion.
Last edited by mistake on Tue May 23, 2006 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
mistake

User avatar
TD-Linux
Sergeant
Sergeant
Posts: 724
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:26 pm
Location: Mountain View, CA

Post by TD-Linux » Tue May 23, 2006 1:33 am

The problem I have with leagues is that I can't always guarantee I'll be there for the length of the match, and it is very very hard for me to ever attend a match that starts at a fixed time. Blame life.

User avatar
menotume
Major General
Major General
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:48 pm
Location: SE Pennsylvania, USA
Contact:

Re: Oh

Post by menotume » Tue May 23, 2006 1:41 am

mistake wrote:After so many debates and ideas proposed, what we have is a poll about match length.
wow. we ask the public for some feedback, and this is what we get. It doesn't mean that other issues aren't being addressed.

Personally, my vision of the league is what it was 2 years ago. What would have have to CHANGE to get back there, besides people's attitudes? And, how do we do that ?

User avatar
SportChick
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:57 am
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Oh

Post by SportChick » Tue May 23, 2006 1:54 am

mistake wrote:Players have given a lot of input. And i say a lot.
Thanks for your post, mistake. You are right, the players have given a lot of input. The topics that have been discussed and proposed are varied, and in many instances, complicated. Please realize that while other issues continue to be discussed and considered, it is helpful, in the meantime, to conclude of some more straightforward topics (hence the poll that was posted today).
Image

mistake
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:12 am

Post by mistake » Tue May 23, 2006 2:13 am

Personally, my vision of the league is what it was 2 years ago.
I haven't played bzflag 2 years ago, so i wouldn't know
What would have have to CHANGE to get back there, besides people's attitudes? And, how do we do that ?
Well, one way is to go back 5 years and wait another 3 years. This seems to be the option that has been taken now.
So yes, how do you change peoples attitude?
By honor teams having many points and keeping it by not matching or make sure you have all means to win a match if you do?
When for the remaining to be happy that everybody not liked left the league?
Match length?

Vision is looking forward, not back. Menotume, I know we almost 100% share the same idea of a league we want to play in. But I don't think it will be reached by staying silent and hope that someone will understand that silenced wish. But maybe you are right, an "I love the league, people, where are we going to?" hasn't helped in the past, and maybe not in the future. What's that vision, Menotume or council or anybody else. Describe it to me.
mistake

User avatar
menotume
Major General
Major General
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:48 pm
Location: SE Pennsylvania, USA
Contact:

Post by menotume » Tue May 23, 2006 4:06 am

Ok, here's MY vision. (Opinions here are my own and do not necessarily represent the council, etc, etc.)

A league where people play the game. They play to have fun, joke around, and make friends. A league where team's talents are relatively even, where there is no bad-mouthing, vendettas, backstabbing, etc. A league where people play to have fun without spending time tweeking their mouse drivers, overclockers and frame rates to get advantanges and dominate the leaderboard. A league where teams don't boycott each other, don't verbally abuse other teams to make them play, don't attack each other in PMs, forums, etc. And, did I mention TO HAVE FUN?

Of course, these are my opinions, one of many players, opinions which may not be shared by some people. The nature of the Ducati league and bzflag itself is open(source), open community, and I for one want the players to participate before any sweeping changes are made to a well-established league which used to be all of the things mentioned above, without a council and with relatively few rules.

If the community agrees with 'my' vision, then we need to make it happen as a community, IMO. I don't think the council has all the answers, and i don't think they can just 'make it happen'.

User avatar
Xell
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 1:55 pm

Post by Xell » Tue May 23, 2006 11:09 am

It's good if you have a concrete vision of the 'new' league, but the council should really distinguish between the things which are actually and directly influenceable, and the things which would be nice, but completely depend on players attitude.
What the council has to do, is to make the league more fun ( yes, i know this is not very concrete ). If the league gets more active then, many players match and have fun, THEN the behaviour of the players will also change. Maybe from 'frustrated' to 'optimistic' or something like that. In that way, the council will only indirectly influence the things which menotume named, like mousetools or whatever, but that way would most propably work.
It's not possible, or not even desirable, to influence the players' attitude directly, although some players suggested that already.

I say that becasue i read many posts here about such things like menotume named, and the people were discussing about how to avoid ME, framerate-tricks etc.. Such problems will disappear later, or they won't. But the council should not concentrate on that topic in my opinion, it's not influencable anyway. It is an effect caused by the whole mentality of the league.

Admirarch
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:06 am
Location: Seeking lost whimsy

Re: Oh

Post by Admirarch » Tue May 23, 2006 11:29 am

I agree with menotume, nothing the council can do will save the league. Decisions can and, for the moment I trust, will be made which will make it better and hopefully streamline the road to recovery but the council as a council are not going to be the deciding factor in the end.
mistake wrote: All the good players have either:

- teamed up in one team
- left
- stopped matching

If nobody can aproach each other in any way, i say we just leave it at that.
This as I see it is the root of all the problems, not the symptom, so let's look at a few things that have happened just over the past few weeks:

tokimi has refounded SNT purely as a team to recruit and train new talent.
catay and karlik have split from BZI because he wanted to do the same.
dmp has joined BZI in order to help us train up a new batch of incers.

These are the sort of actions which will save the league more than any changes to leaderboards, match times and whatever else the council can do. I'm not saying that everybody needs to flee their established teams and then fight like crazy to recruit one of the three new players who wants to join the league, I just wanted to point out that there are people making a genuine effort to correct the largest problem in the league at the moment.

Having said this I'd sort of like to know if there is actually anybody on the council except Sportchick, and briefly a couple of others because we certainly haven't really seen any evidence around here of them. Whilst I don't feel that the council are ever going to be a miracle cure flying in and saving ducati through their decisions it would be nice to have a more active and informative presence from ALL the council members in this forum as we try to work out what changes need to be made.

The obvious conclusion from my two points is that I can't finish this post without saying that catay and tokimi, as people who are currently acting to ensure the improvement and survival of the league, should really be on the council.

User avatar
tokimi
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:45 am
Location: Storrs CT
Contact:

Post by tokimi » Tue May 23, 2006 3:26 pm

I have a small question menotume, what was the usual age of a player 2 years ago in the league?
The very young do not always do as they are told, and the very old never listen any way.

quantum dot
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:19 pm
Location: Spain
Contact:

Post by quantum dot » Tue May 23, 2006 3:52 pm

tokimi wrote:I have a small question menotume, what was the usual age of a player 2 years ago in the league?
excellent question, right to the point IMO....

User avatar
tokimi
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:45 am
Location: Storrs CT
Contact:

Post by tokimi » Tue May 23, 2006 4:28 pm

As QD just put it, I think that a change in player age really contributed to the change in league atmosphere. I came in just at the start of the flow of young people, and I do remember what it was like in the league back when I was in TAA.

But now, we see a much younger crowd, with a very different focus, namely pwning every one else. I think, to get back the 'old' days, we have to give a different kind of incentive to players (namely we younger guys). Hence the posts on changing league play dynamics.

toki
The very young do not always do as they are told, and the very old never listen any way.

User avatar
[dmp]
Captain
Captain
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 3:20 pm
Location: CPH, Denmark
Contact:

Post by [dmp] » Tue May 23, 2006 7:36 pm

The average player age have decreased the last few ages. Younger people can commit much more time to a game and if they bring problems - we see alot of it :)
I don't need huge pictures here.

User avatar
tokimi
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:45 am
Location: Storrs CT
Contact:

Post by tokimi » Wed May 24, 2006 1:41 am

At first, I had mixed feelings about what mistake was saying in the start of this
topic. I do agree that we have allot more to do than just changing match lengths,
but I am sure the council is working hard and this is an easy implementation.
So I think taking what we can by doing little things between big items is important,
and they need to be done at some time or another.
mistake wrote:I want to thank everybody that posted here in this topic, as well as
the players named in admirs post. I was just tired hearing almost just me expressing
the above thoughts in public
(though there is somewhere in a long post by tokimi
similar thoughts expressed). I must say I find it very typical to see your names as
posters in this thread, the ones i always had biggest respect for in the past for their
contributions to the league.
I can't leave mates to wilds of bz mistake :) Just doing what little I can in a big
war. I must say thank you! for posting and contributing your thoughts. Giving me
and others new ideas is the best :D As for seeing the usual suspects always posting,
not sure what to say to that except, well, nothing to say to that.
mistake wrote: Ofcourse we know that age by itself is not the problem, nor is the fact that some
players are simply better and more talented than others, or that some teams are
better than other teams. I also know that you wouldn't disagree that this challenge
is an important part of the game too. I say this to avoid for the comments above to
be misunderstood.

But I find it important to talk about what went wrong and deal with some of the core
problems, and make people aware what you think about it. This information is very
hard to find between all the match length, rewards for newbies etc kind of posts.
Yes, I also think that there are more numerous and complicated issues at work in the
league that has taken us to this extreme point. A few of which have been pointed out,
and many more we have yet to even see (I am sure). You're also right on both counts!
That is: we need to talk about these things, and its hard to find what we do talk about.
As for finding information, SportChick has done a nice job keeping up with core ideas here.
But its allot of work, to read each of these posts and think about them. However the sheer
volume of them all seems to be comforting because people do care about what happens here.

toki
The very young do not always do as they are told, and the very old never listen any way.

User avatar
ducatiwannabe
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:55 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Post by ducatiwannabe » Wed May 24, 2006 4:35 pm

I just haven't had a lot of time. I got my [F]usion teamates from GU to join the league and I hope to be getting active with them shortly.

Sorry I was gone for so long. Real life called and still does, but I'm trying to make time.

Hopefully I can get more people playing ducati league again. Some new recruits.

User avatar
SportChick
Private First Class
Private First Class
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:57 am
Location: California
Contact:

Post by SportChick » Wed May 24, 2006 4:58 pm

ducatiwannabe wrote:I just haven't had a lot of time. I got my [F]usion teamates from GU to join the league and I hope to be getting active with them shortly.

Sorry I was gone for so long. Real life called and still does, but I'm trying to make time.

Hopefully I can get more people playing ducati league again. Some new recruits.
Yay, good job, ducatiwannabe!! I look forward to seeing you on the field!

SC
Image

Post Reply